A250, B250, or what?

[schweg]

Brad, that is a really interesting machine.

What I wanted to comment on though is the response from some of the collectors with a real depth of knowledge. For me, this forum is such a wealth of information because of the interest of the guys with many many years of experience (you're not old, just wise!). Most of my learning has come from reading the available literature and that has increased my knowledge to a great degree, but pictures and some text don't allow the story to continue to develop like it has here.

To see so much information come out, on this, and other rare and early machines, is invaluable to someone like me, who can't make it to phono shows often, and who has not been able to develop friendships with the really serious historians in our hobby. It makes the hunting for new and unusual treasures that much more enjoyable, mainly because I know better now what is rare and worth pursuing.

Thanks to all of you! Steve

[Brad]

Sorry for the delayed response, it has been a busy day.

Pictures are below, but I will summarize:

-The bottom of the drawers are drilled for pegs. The holes are clean and have no evidence of ever having pegs or brackets screwed into the.

-Similarly, the holes for the standard lift lid do not appear to have ever been used.

-The cabinet side and the lid are scalloped out for cylinder removal, and a very high quality patch is in place. Had George not asked about this, I probably would not have noticed.

-The lid lift appears professionally made, and even the part that fastens to the cabinet carcass is gold plated.

-I could not locate a serial number on the motor board. I have included a picture of the motor board and one of the works that I took by sticking my camera down and snapping a picture.

-The serial number of the repro is A13877.

I don't know how to id the motor and would appreciate guidance there. Ditto on the Repro, early, late, odd?

So what do you think? A250, B250, Prototype, Employee special?

[ColoradoPhonograf]

Brad,

Thanks for the added photos and descriptions. I have been reading this thread and following along. My instincts as a collector are that you have a fairly early Amberola cabinet converted from the factory. The vented sides lead me to believe it is from the era where a conversion to the dd machines was the use of unused cabinets. It's evident that all Edison parts were used. I think it is fascinating that the drawers were adapted and used strapped together to use for diamond disc records. It must be an early conversion for maybe an employee. I think it is a factory job for sure but if it is a prototype for something future coming I'm not sure. I'd like to find out more as you do research. Great find there, and I think we will all learn some things from the elements of history behind this machine. The X code serial number is a definite key to a conversion of this. Thanks for sharing this.

ColoradoPhonograf

[phonogfp]

Wow - this gets more and more interesting!

The cabinet definitely once had an Amberola 1A/1B mechanism in it (or at least was prepared for one), as evidenced by the filled mounting holes inside (not to mention the filled cylinder notch and Bruce's observation of a removed Amberola decal under the lid). So we're not necessarily talking about the conversion of a surplus cabinet, but possibly of a complete machine. Was it unsold inventory or a damaged/returned customer machine? Hard to know for sure.

The mechanism is the B-type (Standardized) design, but I'm very surprised to see the motor has a single mainspring. B-250s were supplied with double mainsprings, but then again, an experimental mock-up wouldn't need performance-enhancing chugs(Sorry...couldn't resist...). The B bedplates could accommodate either single or double mainsprings.

The reproducer, although an early type, is not a particularly early production example. It was probably pressed into service at the factory directly from inventory, without regard to finish.

Stepping back and looking at this machine in the context of the time, it's obvious that West Orange was evaluating the efficiencies of converting Amberola 1B cabinets into B-250s. No.1020 is not properly finished for public sale, so its path to the 21st century must have been through a factory employee or other non-traditional route.

Fascinating machine, Brad! Congratulations!

George P.

[Valecnik]

Now that's interesting. Looks like a B series bedplate, new standard disc mechanism with a single spring?

Are there a couple holes filled in next to the mounting ajacent to the speed control?

I assume that even with the drawers fastened together you'd lay the records in the drawers or are they actually deep enough that you could stand them vertically?

[Brad]

I assume that even with the drawers fastened together you'd lay the records in the drawers or are they actually deep enough that you could stand them vertically?

Bruce,

The drawer box is 13.5" wide, but 10.5 inches deep. The records will stand up, but there is nothing to hold them in place.

Stepping back and looking at this machine in the context of the time, it's obvious that West Orange was evaluating the efficiencies of converting Amberola 1B cabinets into B-250s. No.1020 is not properly finished for public sale, so its path to the 21st century must have been through a factory employee or other non-traditional route.

George,

I tend to agree with this conclusion. I am surprised that there are not other known examples of the drawers or the unusual lid lift.

I would think that the "X" serial number prefix would be known within the Edison National site archives. Does anyone have an in with a curator or researcher that I could pursue?

Thanks everyone. This has been an interesting discussion.

Now, to find a set of casters.....

[Valecnik]

I would think that the "X" serial number prefix would be known within the Edison National site archives. Does anyone have an in with a curator or researcher that I could pursue?

Brad, Jerry Fabris would probably be the guy to talk to. He's a member here but not sure how often he checks in. You can also reach him on twitter. Address in the below link.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... ter#p32323

[Brad]

I sent an email to Jerry Fabris at the Edison National site and received the below response:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Fabris"
Cc: "Leonard DeGraaf"
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2011 10:42:06 AM
Subject: Re: Use of the prefix "X" in Edison Serial Numbers

Dear Brad -

Thank you for contacting Thomas Edison National Historical Park with your
question about an Edison Diamond Disc phonograph.

I did a search of the Thomas Edison National Historical Park phonograph
catalog database, and I did not find any similar "X" prefix serial numbers
listed for the Diamond Disc phonographs in the collection. I'm not
familiar with other instances of this type of serial number.

If there are any clues to be found on this, I assume it would require some
searching through the paper archival documents. I am copying Lenny DeGraaf
on this email. Lenny is the archivist here who handles questions that
relate to the paper archival documents.

Sincerely,
Jerry Fabris, Museum Curator
Thomas Edison National Historical Park
National Park Service


-----------

Hi Jerry,

I am hoping you may have a minute to answer a question. I recently
acquired what I believe to be an B-250 Disc Phonograph, however, there were
several aspects of this machine that did not fit. The record drawers were
made from strapping together two cylinder drawers from the Amberola
cabinet, and the lid lift was different. These differences appear to be
factory original.

Most interesting was the ID tag. There was no model number stamped in the
field, and the serial number is stamped "X1020".

There has been a lengthy discussion about this machine on the Talking
machine forum and the general consensus was that either this was a
prototype machine or was made from surplus parts and sold to an employee.

Can you provide any information, or pointers, to Edison's use of the prefix
"X" in the serial numbers?

I have attached a picture of the ID tag. There are more pictures and
discussion on the Talking machine forum at this link:
http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=6166

Thanks in advance,

Brad

[Andersun]

Wow, I just looked at the first pic and realized how long the lift lid is!

Looks like a lift was put way in the back for starters but I bet it didn't work to well. You can see the holes in one of the pics.

I bet if you remove the bedplate mount, you will find the original lid lift holes.

[Brad]

I received the below response from the documentation archivist at Edison.

Anyone know who Ray Wile is? I asked for his contact, however, the privacy act prevents yada yada yada

If you have Mr. Wile's contact info, PM me.

Thanks!

---------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard DeGraaf"
To: Brad
Sent: Wednesday, June 1, 2011 7:09:33 AM
Subject: Re: Use of the prefix "X" in Edison Serial Numbers

Hi Brad,

I wish I could help but we are unable to conduct extensive research in the archives for the public and I am not aware of any records that would answer this question. I can't say the archives doesn't have records on this subject, but because of the size of the collection, finding any relevant information would require a considerable amount of research. I think this is a "needle in a haystack" situation.

Have you asked Ray Wile?

Lenny
Leonard DeGraaf
Archivist
Thomas Edison National Historical Park
National Park Service
US Dept of the Interior