Pre-Dog Victors & Their Horns

[JerryVan]

A question... When we see a pre-dog Victor, (of any model), equipped with horn having a "dog" decal, is this a legitimate pairing? In other words, did pre-dog Victors come with "dog" decal horns? If so, during what eras? (I'm sure the super early stuff had no dogs at all.) Did leather elbow horns have "dog" decals?

[kiwiatlarge]

Great question Jerry. Definitely one for John D or George P to answer! I have six pre-dog machines, five with leather elbows and one rigid arm conversion. None of my leather elbow horns have a Victor decal. Of course, I can't confirm whether these are the original horns to the machines. My theory, based on old catalogs, and one John or George can quickly dispel, is that the horn decal appeared at about the same time the brass elbow was introduced for front mount machines. The earliest catalog I've seen with images of decals on front mount horns is from 1904, but it seems it took a while for the catalogs images to reflect actual offerings.

Michael

[phonogfp]

I was reluctant to answer this, in hopes that someone who has seriously studied the topic might offer a definitive answer. I'm still hoping...

That said, my observations align with those of Jerry and Michael. I don't believe any Eldridge Johnson machines left the factory with decals on their horns. Likewise with early Victor machines (Royals seemed to carry pre-dog data plates for a long time.) Like Michael, I believe the transition to horn decals occurred close to the time (maybe even precisely) when brass elbows replaced leather.

As already noted, it's often unknown if a particular horn was original to a particular machine. That doesn't help researchers, but years of finding Victors "in the wild" and the illustrations contained in Victor catalogs appear to support the theory that Victor horn decals and brass elbows appeared at approximately the same time.

I wish I could offer something more definitive, but as I wrote above, I'm hoping someone will.

George P.

[Ripduf1]

Hi all. Here is another none definitive reply but has some level of evidence....

Michael’s summary nails it for me. Pre-dog = no decal on horn. Empirically, in all my years of rolling and straightening horns I have never seen a horn designed to accept a leather elbow with a dog decal. I have however seen threaded elbow 19” Victor horns WITH NO DECAL. I believe that at the time that Johnson was negotiating the deal on the trademark, a technical improvement of the threaded elbow was likely in the works anyway, that there may have been a period of some pre dog machines/cabinets that were sold with branded horns. Those horns would have been most likely to have the dog with a blue background on the horn decal.

[JerryVan]

Thanks, all. This is great information! I think we're seeing a general consensus. Maybe some others will chime in yet as well.

[phonospud]

I had a Victor horn with a decal on it with blue background. Shawn O Rourke had told me it was specifically for a rigid arm machine because when you would screw the elbow onto it using it on a front mount machine, the decal was in the wrong position. When screwed into a rigid arm elbow it would allow the decal to be in the correct orientation.

[JerryVan]

I had a Victor horn with a decal on it with blue background. Shawn O Rourke had told me it was specifically for a rigid arm machine because when you would screw the elbow onto it using it on a front mount machine, the decal was in the wrong position. When screwed into a rigid arm elbow it would allow the decal to be in the correct orientation.

Wow, this brings up another issue/question! I have a front mount, pre-dog, Victor M with a Gibson arm. The horn has a decal, with black background. The horn orients such that the decal is on top, not along the side. Were this to be on a rigid arm machine, the decal would indeed move to the side, but would be upside down, (I believe). Well aged scratches in the original paint from rubbing on the horn support, suggest that it's been used in this orientation for a very long time, and has been used on a front mount machine, (evidenced by the support arm scratches). Just an anomaly?

[Ripduf1]

Hi Jerry, your point IS THE POINT. A rigid arm horn would (IMO) have a blue background decal oriented to the "offside" of the crank. One should assume the seam along the barrel of the horn should always be at "6 o'clock". Due to imprecise manufacturing tolerances, employee fatigue (somewhat random placement of the decal while being manufactured) your decal ends up towards 12 o'clock. but you are correct that if the decal went over to the off crank side - poor nipper would be upside down for a long time!

Here is a posting I made some time ago for a legit 13 ¾" dia. THREADED elbow horn for a rigid arm MS machine with Nipper in correct - factory orientation. viewtopic.php?t=58497&hilit=Rigid

Based on this I feel a legit Rigid arm 19" (for Rigid "M") horn (11 ⅜" dia.)would have a blue background decal with orientation to the "off side". I have a repainted, Cline decal one for sale if needed by anyone.

Regarding Rigid arm E and R, I have never seen the smaller horn for either that had a decal.

John