any information on columbia grand concert cylinders?

[brianu]

I recently found this large columbia concert cylinder. I know nothing about these - not to mention, I have no means to play it - so I snapped some photos hoping I might find some guidance here. there doesn't appear to be any information on the cylinder itself, and the title and number seem handwritten on the container, but I can't make it out. might anyone be able to offer any information?

[Blimpy]

I see some writing on the label. I can't quite make out what it says, but there's something there

In the late 1890s, in response to the demand for louder records, Columbia and some other companies introduced larger cylinders to satisfy the public. Some machines were made specifically for these new "Grand"/"Concert" records, while others had a removable madrel (the part that holds the cylinder) to fit these big things. They were made obsolete a few years later by "Gold-Moulded" records, which improved quality and volume while still being compatible and easier to store.

Here's an example of the type of machine used to play these things:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfiTBu9x-UA[/youtube]

[Phototone]

You should also know that every Concert Grand Cylinder was either an original or a dub from another cylinder, as there was never developed a practical method of moulding them-that is making a mould of the original recording so copies could be easily cast, thus they were never "mass" produced.

[Jerry B.]

5" Lambert cylinders were an example of molded 5" cylinders but their market share was very small. Jerry Blais

[JohnM]

5" cylinders were originally used in the Edison recording studio as masters, from which several 'standard' cylinders could be dubbed, because the larger cylinders were louder and clearer due to the higher surface speed. Edison never patented this process because he feared that competitors would steal it and use it regardless if it was revealed via a patent. Nonetheless, Columbia did learn of the process and began to use it, and forced Edison's hand by introducing the Type GG 'Graphophone Grand', Although he had no plans to market these cylinders to the public, Edison was forced to do so by Columbia's move, and introduced the 'Concert' Phonograph to compete with the Type GG. The format proved relatively successful particularly for exhibition work, but both the machines and the cylinders were expensive and so the target market was not home entertainment (cylinders at first were $5.00 each -- about $125 in today's money!). Much of the wind was taken out of the format in 1902 when molded standard cylinders came on the market that had comparable volume and fidelity at a much lower cost. Edison supplied the Concert until 1906, and I believe the 5" cylinders were available on special order until 1909 -- a roughly ten-year run for the format!

[syncopeter]

A bigger size meant higher recording speed, resulting in better quality and higher volume. Pathé used concert diameter cylinders for most of its master recordings until late of the 1910s in Europe and then made dubbings unto the different formats of both disc and cylinder records. Concert cylinders were cumbersome beasts, heavy, expensive and quite brittle. All right for studios, but less so for home entertainment.
So it's not surprising these things are so rare. They were quite hard to make in the first place, needed extremely careful treatment and were only for the very discerning music lover. Who could probably afford to have live entertainment anyhow. I would be surprised if there were more than 10,000 existant in playable condition and quite problably even far less. A total number of 1,000 in good condition wouldn't surprise me. Any relevant music on these should be transferred as soon as possible, preferrably with a laser, because they may disintegrate within the next 10 to 15 years. And, yes I'm quite serious about this, a huge part of our aural archive is crumbling before our very eyes. Acetates, early tape recordings, are deterioriating at an alarming rate at the moment. We've already lost most of our early moving pictures due to chemical processes. The same thing is happening to our audio archives.
That is the importance of forums like this. If you think you have something of value, for Pete's sake digitize it and make it available via Youtube or any other medium. It may not be the best of quality, but at least you've saved it. In a few years it may not be there any more. So much already has been lost.

[Starkton]

From May 1899, 5" concert masters were regularly molded in the Edison laboratory to make (5" concert) duplicates, and these duplicates were used as masters in the cutting duplicating department.

From when did Columbia mold its 5" master records?

[Phototone]

From May 1899, 5" concert masters were regularly molded in the Edison laboratory to make (5" concert) duplicates, and these duplicates were used as masters in the cutting duplicating department.

From when did Columbia mold its 5" master records?

That would be internal use to facilitate duplication by pantograph I would think. I am not aware Edison or Columbia made moulded 5" cylinders that they sold to the public.

[estott]

I've got an early 20th C. Edison catalog that touts the Concert as being the finest machine you can buy.

HOWEVER...

In the back of the catalog is a discrete offer of parts to convert your Concert to play standard cylinders..."By the use of this a Concert may be made equal to a Triumph in quality"

At times Edison wasn't all that scrupulous when it came to making a buck.

[phonogfp]

There have already been excellent posts on this topic, but I must point out that "Concert" was Edison's marketing term, and "Grand" was Columbia's marketing term. There's really no such thing as a "Concert Grand" cylinder - - it would be like a Ford "Focus Cobalt." The general collecting term is usually "5 inch cylinders."

As with all brown wax cylinders, you can't go by what's written on the box, as the records and boxes are often switched around over the years. I only wish I had some of the titles written on my record boxes!

George P.