Trademark machine variations

[penman]

Has anyone done research on the motor variations in early Berliner and Victor trademark machines. I've seen numbers that suggest up to 35-40,000 were made, and I know that governors, brakes, horns etc. changed over time. My Berliner has a 2 weight governor and a low number (1200's), but I've only read about 3 weight governors. Does anyone have a correlation with numbers, variations, and approximate production dates. I know this can only an inexact science, since this was a business, and if old parts were on hand, that's what got used. Looking forward to any insight.

[OrthoFan]

I don't know that any extensive (web-based) descriptive list has been compiled.

An attempt to chronicle the Berliner gramophones was made a few years ago, known as "The Berliner Registry Project." Unfortunately, it's been abandoned. (A link to the now defunct web page -- http://www.berliner.netfirms.com/ -- still comes up when you do a Google search.)


There are a few sites with some limited information. For instance, if you type "Berliner" in the search box at the romfi site -- http://www.romfi.com/search/dsp_searchr ... N=42147333 -- it will bring up eight listings.

OF

[penman]

I found those links. Some good photos, but unfortunately a little light on a good chronological history of the machines. It does show that the Montross machines also had 2 weight governors. If there's any interest out there it might be nice to try and put some additional info together. It's sad when the historical facts about a hobby are either lost, or get wrapped up in myth. Some of the excellent well researched books out there help, but there are always specific topics, that by necessity, can't be covered at length in books that must appeal to a broad segment of the hobby. It's also tough when the original records are not available. I assume most early Victor records were lost in the 1904 fire. My own experience in pen collecting is similar. Up until 10-15 years ago real information on the formative years of companies like Waterman, and Parker were more storytelling than anything based on fact. The famous (at least in pen circles) story of how the Waterman fountain pen was invented, and perpetuated continuously for years, was completely bogus and was invented by Waterman marketing in 1933 for the company's 50th anniversary.

I'm happy to see that on this board the members do seem to possess real knowledge and are willing to share . I'm looking forward to future discussions.

gf

[Starkton]

If there's any interest out there it might be nice to try and put some additional info together. It's sad when the historical facts about a hobby are either lost, or get wrapped up in myth.

I am absolutely with you in regard of historical facts - as many of my posts prove. But as our hobby has so much facets the most important starting point for any new research is personal interest. If I had an early trademark machine as yours I would take the initiative myself, collect all available information and finally publish it in a nice and authoritative (that means including written sources) article in one of our collectors' magazines.

[FloridaClay]

One of the things that worries me about the internet age, as wonderful as it is in terms of accessability to information, is that like the Berliner site, unlike books websites with unique information just disappear for one reason or another.

Clay

[penman]

Starkton:

I agree completely with you. When I collect something, one of the most important facets, to me, is the history behind it. There is nothing better than to put a collection into historical perspective, and enjoy being a part of the history. Books, Forums, organizations, shows, etc. are all great sources. Having been out of this particular hobby for many years has left me somewhat "in the dust" on information for early Victors. Way back when (1980) I was mostly into Edisons, and could not afford the Victors I wanted. I hope to get back into this hobby, and get more involved. I know there has already been lots of research, much more than there was 30 yrs. ago, when some of the few books were "From Tinfoil....." and the Sefl "pamphlet" on Edison, and no internet. The internet has helped spread information, but I know one has to proceed with caution. You're right that actual source material is needed, not speculation. One of the blessings (and curses) of the history of mechanical or technological collectibles is the vast record of litigation on patents, and business practice. Although this too should be approached with caution since the record was seldom neutral, everyone had an agenda. But it is fascinating.

Looking forward to hearing from, and actually meeting folks at shows, etc.

gf

[penman]

I think it's also great that the old posts on this forum are available, and I've slowly been trolling through them, only up to page 63 though