Restoring HMV 102... a few questions

[Steve E.]

Hi all. I have finally joined this board. Some of you may remember me from the
old Old Time Victrola Music Message Board, where I posted as SteveVV265. Or something like that.

I still post intermittently on the new board, but it's been a while. I posted a version of this over there, and I hope it's OK that I am posting it here too. Here 'tis:

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I finally bought an HMV 102!! The outside was trashed --all the paper rotted off-- so I was able to get it pretty cheap as these things go.

(I already have a well-maintained HMV 101 and a wonderful, near-mint Australian HMV 94A from 1950 that seems to be a streamlined, budget version of the 102 with a double spring. We talked about it on the old board. Google it and it will come up.)

ANYWAY. My plan for this one is to have an artist friend paint all over the outside and make this one psychedelic. Maybe cover it with panels from Krazy Kat or late 1920's Polly and Her Pals. Go anti-purist since it's already wrecked, and I'm a little bored with purism.

I have a few questions, having never encountered a 102 in person before.

1) The reproducer/Soundbox is a No. 16. The thumbscrew seems to be angling the needle a little differently than I am used to. When observed from the front, it looks like the needle points slightly towards the middle of the record at an 80 degree angle instead of the 90 degrees I'd expect. (I'm talking about the left/right axis....the forward angle looks normal.) It sounds fine (loud, maybe a touch "tinny") but I fear this will trash records. Should I be alarmed? Is this a common phenomenon?

1a) The former owner was using needles with red thread covering the backs. I don't intend to use them as they are ancient, but i wonder if that's a clue.

2) Every time I look at a picture of a 102 I see a square with the logo on the inner top lid. This appears to be a smaller square than the record holder in the top of my 101. My hunch is that this is some sort of cushion to hold the records in place, given the record-holding platter apparatus that also comes with this model. Can anyone describe what this square is? What material is is made of? Mine is missing and I'd like to create a functional replacement if it's an important feature.

3) The top lid is revealed to be made of a very thick cardboard. Mine has some mildew or other black mold in it. The lid is buckled slightly inward as well. Any suggestions on treating it? Eventually, as I said, I will have it painted.

Other than that, the thing seems to be running beautifully! All I had to do was soften up the governor's friction pad (I used a little acetone-free nail polish remover, then 3 in 1 oil) and it was ready to go. Amazing.

Oh yeah, I also reduced buzzing by removing a 1.5 inch, 75-year old cockroach mummy that was kissing the back of the soundbox. Poor thing had taste but no ability to turn around.

[Steve E.]

bump. this took a while to appear because I posted it anonymously by mistake. hi all.

[OrthoFan]

If this came with the #16 sound box, it must be a pretty early model. Unfortunately, the #16 cannot be opened for repair--it's press fitted together, so any buzzing, other than that caused by mummified cockroaches , you're pretty well stuck with. I remember, with the one I had, that the needle was slightly angled. Whether this was part of the original design, or caused by the lid falling onto the sound box while it was playing a record, I don't know. I eventually replaced the #16 sound box with a restored #5b, which made for an amazing difference in performance.

I had no idea that the lid was made out of cardboard!

Any chance of posting a few photos?

OF

[Steve E.]

I will post some photos in a bit.

Only the top face of the lid is cardboard. This may be because of the recessed pattern molded into it. It may also have to do with wanting a little "give" so that records would be less likely to shatter during transport? Just a theory.

This seems to be the rarer "seven screws on the motorboard" version, though a screw is missing. Yet another hole appears to have held a second post which kept the record holder from spinning. (I'd like to get a replacement post).

I'd still like confirmation on whether the square I see in the inner lid of well-maintained HMV 102s is some sort of cushion.

and yes, I'd love to get a 5B soundbox. I'll probably end up paying more for it than for the machine.

[gramophoneshane]

The 101, 102, 97 & 88 all have cardboard lids & bottoms. I've fixed buckled lids by dampening the cardboard & hitting it with a hot iron to flatten it, then weighted it down for a few hours with a slab of granite.
I found the best place to get 5a/5b soundboxes is from Ebay India. The last couple I got cost under $20 each.

[Steve E.]

Almost every 5A OR 5B I have found, when looking around for the past year and a half, was going on Ebay India for around $200! I found a couple that were more like $50-70, but they looked to have problems: rust and cracks.

I did find another HMV102 locally, for $200, and it has a 5B. score. But I'd still love another 5A or 5B.

[Steve E.]

PS:

* The 5B I found has a bent thumbscrew. Can anyone recommend a good place to get a good replacement thumbscrew? I can't tighten "quiet" needles in it.

* The "new" HMV 102 came with a bunch of very interesting-looking steel needles. The base is thick, like a loud needle, but they taper into a very thin point, like the quiet needles I've seen. They seem to be unused, and they sound great. I wonder if anyone is manufacturing needles like these now.

* It appears that BOTH of these HMV 102s angle the needle a little more towards the center of the record than I typically see. This is in effect with the 5B soundbox, too. I am thinking it's actually "normal."

[Steve E.]

PPS: Answering my own earlier question:

The "square" I had seen on the inner lid is indeed, functionally, a sort of cushion. It's quite stiff, probably made of cardboard, but it is a thick separate piece that seems to be held on by a springy material (maybe cloth or foam). I would assume that this would effectively hold records in place, and protect them from shock, if they were on the stacker.

[epigramophone]

The square plaque inside the lid of the HMV 102 was originally glued in place, and carried the familiar HMV logo.
Here in the UK, some unscrupulous people have been known to remove these plaques, which they then frame and sell as pictures. Such an act of vandalism probably devalues the gramophone by more than the picture sells for.
The plaque is not found on later 102's, which have a deeper lid with the HMV logo applied direct to the inside.
If you want to learn about all the many variations in HMV portables, I can recommend "The Perfect Portable Gramophone" by Dave Cooper ISBN : 1 872727 49 2 published by http://www.newcavendishbooks.com.

[Steve E.]

I've taken photos & videos and I'm just being lazy about posting them. I will, though.

OK! New situation, so new questions.

New situation is that I bought a No. 5A HMV soundbox from an impressive collector who posts here. It arrived today. It sounds fantastic and looks great. So...

1) Is there any "value" to keeping my No.16 soundbox? Its gaskets can't be fixed, but do collectors value them? I am thinking of letting an instrument-expert-inventor friend of mine cut it open and use the parts for an experimental instrument he's making. Is this dumb of me, from an antiquing/respect-for-history point of view? Or are these things common enough?

2) The arrival of the 5A has increased my concern that there is something funny about my 5B. As with the #16, my No.5B angles the needle slightly towards the center of the record; the new 5A does not. Nothing extremely obvious, maybe just 3-5%. (I'm not sure a photo would convey it. It is subtle!!) There seems to be SOMETHING at the back of the little needle holder in the needle arm. Perhaps it is a small crimped loop of metal. When I slide a needle into the compartment, it catches on something 1/16 of an inch before it goes all the way in, and this tilts it. Is this a known phenomenon? The 5B came with a bent thumbscrew, so it may have been bashed around a bit in its day. It SOUNDS fantastic, and it looks normal from the outside, but I fear the angling will put needless wear on records.