Fixing up an Edison Cylinder Player

[Guest]

Hello there. My name is Bohus, and I'm new here. I just inherited a cyclinder player and a box of cylinders (including some home recorded stuff), and I'm just dying to get the player to work. I've always been interested in finding a classic cylinder player, so I'm looking forward to getting it working again.

I'm fairly handy, so I tihnk I can take a shot at fixing up the problems. First off, I don't even know what model this is. It's an old timer for sure. Is there a website for those of us who are just starting out?

The main problem (besides not knowing much about the operation of this unit) is that the main roller that you put the cylinder on doesn't move. Yet when I popped the hood on mine, I easily found the motor release, and also found the thing holding the motor back. Once released, the spring motor seemed like it could run forever.

Thanks for any advice. I'll try to include some photos next time!

-Bohus
co-editor
retrothing.com

[alang]

Hello Bohus,
welcome to the forum. You will find lots of information and people who are willing to help and share their knowledge here. Congratulations to your new cylinder phonograph and also to your home recorded cylinders. These are a real piece of history, I would love to have some - especially inherited from my own family.
In order to help you identify your machine it would help if you could post some pictures here. The reason why the mandrel (roller that you put the cylinder on) isn't moving is most likely caused by a pot metal bearing that has expanded and needs to be replaced. But before you do anything you first need to identify your machine.
I would suggest buying the book "The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric Reiss. It is the best resource for anyone who wants to fix or restore a phonograph.
A few web resources:
http://www.nipperhead.com/old/ephemera.htm for copies of original manuals etc.
http://www.wyattsmusical.com/manuals.html parts and instructions.
http://www.antiquephono.com/ parts.
http://www.victroladoctor.com/ Parts and repairs.

There are many other resources as well on the web. Google is your friend.
Good Luck.
Andreas

[gulag picture radio]

Those are some great links to get started. I will definitely pick up the book that you suggest.

My use of the word "inherited" is a little innaccurate. This was a gift from a friend rather than a family member. She doesn't have any idea what is on these cylinders either. So I'm looking forward to getting the machine working for her sake too.

I don't have a horn for it, but I've seen some reproduction horns on Ebay for around $40-75 (any recommendations would be most welcome). It's got a musty smell to it, and the finish on the metal is dulled (possibly moldy?), but I haven't cleaned anything yet so I don't accidentally use the wrong materials.

The only other thing I can add is that the belt seems quite loose, and it stains the hands, so I'm guessing that'll need replacement once I figure out the overlal mechanics of the thing. Or maybe even how the device is supposed to operate in the first place!

Thanks for any help, and I'll make sure to research those links you sent me to.

[alang]

This appears to be an Edison Home Model D. I think it was made from 1908 until 1910 or 1911. The problem is most likely a swollen pot metal mandrel bearing, in the middle between the mandrel and the feedscrew. The second link I gave you leads to instructions how to replace it. You can get a replacement part from most parts suppliers. Many say that those from APSCO in oilite Bronze are the best and won't swell again. http://www.antiquephono.com/edmotor.htm.

All the part suppliers offer horns, but you can also get them on eBay of course. Many here would prefer an original horn over a reproduction, but that's a personal preference.

There are many threads on this forum talking about how to clean the wood and metal parts. As a quick and simple start you could use a hand cleaner like GoJo or GooP, but make sure you get the pumice free version. Apply it to the wooden parts with 0000 steel wool, always following the wood grain. Let sit for a few minutes until liquified then wie off with a soft cloth or paper towel. Repeat if necessary. Be careful and DO NOT use steel wool on the Edison decals! You can use the same cleaner on the upper metal parts, but DO NOT use steel wool there. Apply with a painbrush or cloth. Be especially careful around the gold and blue pin striping, it is in such nice condition, you don't want to damage it. If you take the motor and gears completely apart you can use paint thinner or similar to clean these parts, but DO NOT get paint thinner or even alcohol on the painted and laquered metal parts like the bedplate etc, it would take the paint right off. On the Wyatt's website are instructions for removing and re-installing the mainspring for cleaning and lubrication. It's not too difficult, but messy and requires some strength and concentration. Soaking the mainspring in paint thinner or naphta makes removal of all the hardened old grease and gunk a lot easier. Make sure you note the direction that the spring is installed in the barrel before you start removing it. In general it's a good idea to take many detailed photos from different angles as reference before you start taking things apart. Be very carefull with all main spring work, these prings hold a lot of power. Make sure that the motor is completely wound down before removing the governor or mainspring barrel, otherwise it could release a lot of force and damage gears or yourself.

Here a video from Gramophone Shane about mainspring removal: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbPa-VWAzSY[/youtube]

You can get belting material from all the suppliers. It's not too hard to make a new belt once everything else is fixed.

Good Luck and most importantly: Have fun!
Andreas

[VintageTechnologies]

This appears to be an Edison Home Model D. I think it was made from 1908 until 1910 or 1911. The problem is most likely a swollen pot metal mandrel bearing, in the middle between the mandrel and the feedscrew. The second link I gave you leads to instructions how to replace it. You can get a replacement part from most parts suppliers. Many say that those from APSCO in oilite Bronze are the best and won't swell again. http://www.antiquephono.com/edmotor.htm.

All the part suppliers offer horns, but you can also get them on eBay of course. Many here would prefer an original horn over a reproduction, but that's a personal preference.

There are many threads on this forum talking about how to clean the wood and metal parts. As a quick and simple start you could use a hand cleaner like GoJo or GooP, but make sure you get the pumice free version. Apply it to the wooden parts with 0000 steel wool, always following the wood grain. Let sit for a few minutes until liquified then wie off with a soft cloth or paper towel. Repeat if necessary. Be careful and DO NOT use steel wool on the Edison decals! You can use the same cleaner on the upper metal parts, but DO NOT use steel wool there. Apply with a painbrush or cloth. Be especially careful around the gold and blue pin striping, it is in such nice condition, you don't want to damage it. If you take the motor and gears completely apart you can use paint thinner or similar to clean these parts, but DO NOT get paint thinner or even alcohol on the painted and laquered metal parts like the bedplate etc, it would take the paint right off. On the Wyatt's website are instructions for removing and re-installing the mainspring for cleaning and lubrication. It's not too difficult, but messy and requires some strength and concentration. Soaking the mainspring in paint thinner or naphta makes removal of all the hardened old grease and gunk a lot easier. Make sure you note the direction that the spring is installed in the barrel before you start removing it. In general it's a good idea to take many detailed photos from different angles as reference before you start taking things apart. Be very carefull with all main spring work, these prings hold a lot of power. Make sure that the motor is completely wound down before removing the governor or mainspring barrel, otherwise it could release a lot of force and damage gears or yourself.

Here a video from Gramophone Shane about mainspring removal: [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbPa-VWAzSY[/youtube]

You can get belting material from all the suppliers. It's not too hard to make a new belt once everything else is fixed.

Good Luck and most importantly: Have fun!
Andreas

That is a scary-looking video, Andreas! Let me suggest an easier and SAFER way to uncoil and reload springs, especially the big ones: clamp the spring can in a big honking vise mounted on a pedestal so that you can walk around the vise and can use both hands to hold and control the springs. That's what I do. Once you start uncoiling a spring, you are kind of committed to seeing it through until it is done - you can't turn it loose if you cut your hand or need to pick your nose! I'm sure the old timers don't need such aids, but I'm a coward. Don't just clamp a bare spring can in the vise either, because unless you clamp it hard (risking bending the can) it will wiggle and pivot around in the vise. I cut some round wood inserts to hold the spring can in the vise, although some wood Vee's would work also. I have also discovered that some springs have much sharper edges than others. I need to find some really thin gloves to avoid the numerous little cuts I received while uncoiling/recoiling two springs from a Victor III. I have always used my bare hands because thick gloves seem a hindrance. Suggestions?

[VintageTechnologies]

The reason why the mandrel (roller that you put the cylinder on) isn't moving is most likely caused by a pot metal bearing that has expanded and needs to be replaced.

That is unfortunately a common problem, but it is relatively easy to repair. The biggest problem is freeing the mandrel shaft from the bushing and then removing the swollen bushing without damaging the machine. The bedplate is cast iron, and the metal upright that holds the bushing could snap off if you are too forceful with it. On the one occasion that I had to replace one, I used a penetrating solvent to loosen up the mandrel shaft and then gradually twisted and wiggled it free without too much force. I did not want to risk damaging the metal or paint by trying to drill or cut the bushing out, so I devised a very simple solution to squeeze it out without any stress to the casting: I found a piece of water pipe whose interior dimension was large enough to slip over the bushing. I cut a piece of that pipe, perhaps an inch long and trued up the ends on a lathe. Then I found a long machine screw that would fit through the hole of the bushing, and a nut. I also found two washers that fit the machine screw, one large enough to butt against the end of the pipe, and one smaller than the diameter of the bushing. I slipped the pipe over the bushing to butt up against the upright holding the bushing. I put the small washer on the bolt and passed the bolt through the bushing until the bolt head with small washer was against the bushing. The bolt was long enough to project beyond the pipe that shrouded the bushing. I slipped on the large washer, then the nut. All I had to do was turn the nut until it pulled the bushing clean through the upright and into the pipe. Nothing could have been simpler or less forceful.

Bronze bearings are available as replacements for the pot metal and are fine for most people, but I went a different route. I tried a Timken needle bearing (http://www.timken.com) for minimum friction. I found a bearing with the correct I.D., but had to machine a metal adapter sleeve to make the O.D. fit the Edison. I simply press fit the bearing into the adapter sleeve. I packed the bearing with LubriPlate, a white lithium grease. My experiment was worthwhile, it extended the playing time per winding.

[alang]

That is a scary-looking video, Andreas! Let me suggest an easier and SAFER way to uncoil and reload springs, especially the big ones: clamp the spring can in a big honking vise mounted on a pedestal so that you can walk around the vise and can use both hands to hold and control the springs. That's what I do. Once you start uncoiling a spring, you are kind of committed to seeing it through until it is done - you can't turn it loose if you cut your hand or need to pick your nose! I'm sure the old timers don't need such aids, but I'm a coward. Don't just clamp a bare spring can in the vise either, because unless you clamp it hard (risking bending the can) it will wiggle and pivot around in the vise. I cut some round wood inserts to hold the spring can in the vise, although some wood Vee's would work also. I have also discovered that some springs have much sharper edges than others. I need to find some really thin gloves to avoid the numerous little cuts I received while uncoiling/recoiling two springs from a Victor III. I have always used my bare hands because thick gloves seem a hindrance. Suggestions?

Well, the video is not from me but from forum member Gramophone Shane. If you double click on it you can see it in youTube with additional comments about safety precautions. I disagree that it's scary though. Whan I started I had read several instructions on how to do it, but seeing this video made me understand it much better. My first spring that I did this way was from an Edison Diamond Disc motor, which has a pretty large spring and my only problem was that I was wearing rubber gloves which disintegrated during the process. Ever since I'm wearing mechanics gloves made from fabric with rubber for better grip. Yes, someone with ADD or a constantly running nose shouldn't try it, that's why I said you need concentration and some strength. I never had an issue with an orginal spring, they usually go in the same way they came out. I recently had to replace a spring with a brand new replacement which felt like it was thicker, that was the only time I had a problem getting a spring back into it's housing. I also do not like to let the spring come out into a barrel or similar, I like to unwind it manually so I know how it feels and how strong it is. And no, I'm not doing this since 20 years, I just started 2 years ago.
Andreas

[alang]

..I did not want to risk damaging the metal or paint by trying to drill or cut the bushing out, so I devised a very simple solution to squeeze it out without any stress to the casting: I found a piece of water pipe whose interior dimension was large enough to slip over the bushing. I cut a piece of that pipe, perhaps an inch long and trued up the ends on a lathe. Then I found a long machine screw that would fit through the hole of the bushing, and a nut. I also found two washers that fit the machine screw, one large enough to butt against the end of the pipe, and one smaller than the diameter of the bushing. I slipped the pipe over the bushing to butt up against the upright holding the bushing. I put the small washer on the bolt and passed the bolt through the bushing until the bolt head with small washer was against the bushing. The bolt was long enough to project beyond the pipe that shrouded the bushing. I slipped on the large washer, then the nut. All I had to do was turn the nut until it pulled the bushing clean through the upright and into the pipe. Nothing could have been simpler or less forceful.

That's a great tip, I'll try that on my home that's been sitting in my basement for quite some time now. All the other suggestions that involve drilling and cutting seem a bit scary if you don't have special tools and a full workshop.
Thanks
Andreas

[edisonrestorer64]

you Never Ever want to drill & cut anything I have 2 of these wonderful machines and well it is important to keep these gems going
sincerely will

[New Owner]

For a horn, try getting a larger morning glory horn that's attached with a rubber tube and a stand. They're more decorative and offer better sound (louder and less tinny than the cone and Witch's Hat horns). They're the ones that look like big flowers, if you don't know what to look for.