Restoring HMV 102... a few questions

[bart1927]

The arrival of the 5A has increased my concern that there is something funny about my 5B. As with the #16, my No.5B angles the needle slightly towards the center of the record; the new 5A does not. Nothing extremely obvious, maybe just 3-5%. (I'm not sure a photo would convey it. It is subtle!!) There seems to be SOMETHING at the back of the little needle holder in the needle arm. Perhaps it is a small crimped loop of metal. When I slide a needle into the compartment, it catches on something 1/16 of an inch before it goes all the way in, and this tilts it. Is this a known phenomenon? The 5B came with a bent thumbscrew, so it may have been bashed around a bit in its day. It SOUNDS fantastic, and it looks normal from the outside, but I fear the angling will put needless wear on records.

I have an HMV 130 with a 5A soundbox, and also a spare 5B. Made curious by your message I checked it and came to the same conclusion. When I put a needle in the 5B it is slightly angled, in the 5A it's not. Furthermore, the needle goes in a little deeper with the 5B compared to the 5A.

I don't hear any effect on the sound. And because those styli assume the shape of the groove after a couple of revolutions I don't think it can do any harm. Perhaps if you play one particular record extremely often one groove wall will wear down faster than the other?

[Steve E.]

Well, that's interesting! I'm wondering if you, too, notice a little ridge or "bump" that the needle hits against before it goes all the way back. This is along the inner edge opposite the thumbscrew. Maybe some sort of tiny metal piece has distorted over time.

It does also seem possible that the diaphragm is pushed slightly "forward"--as in, to the outer part of the record--on my 5B: As if the rear gasket has expanded, and/or the front gasket has compressed over time. The 5B seems to start with the diaphragm expanded slightly rightwards, yet also capable of more spring or compression to the left. Understand, I'm talking about VERY subtle differences. Both of the soundboxes sound great.

Basically, I think if I found a couple of straight foot-long dowels that were needle-thin, and thumbscrewed one into each soundbox....and taped a foot-long card to the back of each soundbox.....the dowel would eventually meet the card on the 5B, but would remain more or less parallel to the card on the 5A.

[saxymojo]

I've taken photos & videos and I'm just being lazy about posting them. I will, though.


2) The arrival of the 5A has increased my concern that there is something funny about my 5B. As with the #16, my No.5B angles the needle slightly towards the center of the record; the new 5A does not. Nothing extremely obvious, maybe just 3-5%. (I'm not sure a photo would convey it. It is subtle!!) There seems to be SOMETHING at the back of the little needle holder in the needle arm. Perhaps it is a small crimped loop of metal. When I slide a needle into the compartment, it catches on something 1/16 of an inch before it goes all the way in, and this tilts it. Is this a known phenomenon? The 5B came with a bent thumbscrew, so it may have been bashed around a bit in its day. It SOUNDS fantastic, and it looks normal from the outside, but I fear the angling will put needless wear on records.

Hi Steve

With regard to the needle tilting inward, I once had a 5A that did this. What I found was that a soft tone needle had snapped off inside leaving a small amount jammed in there, so when I put a new needle in, it was angled. I would get a very small jewellers screw driver and poke around in there to see if this is the case.

Regards Marcel

[syncopeter]

I never had any problems with my 5a and since it the one Bart1927 has now I think it is indeed the remains of a needle that causes the resistance. My 130 wit 5a was totally original and had only been greased and oiled when I bought it. The soundbox was so good that it didn't need new gaskets. Even late 50s 78s played perfectly without any blasting, but o boy were they loud. You could hear it clearly two floors door even with closed doors. A good 102 is able to produce a comparable volume, after all they were made until 1958!

[bart1927]

I never had any problems with my 5a and since it the one Bart1927 has now I think it is indeed the remains of a needle that causes the resistance. My 130 wit 5a was totally original and had only been greased and oiled when I bought it. The soundbox was so good that it didn't need new gaskets. Even late 50s 78s played perfectly without any blasting, but o boy were they loud. You could hear it clearly two floors door even with closed doors. A good 102 is able to produce a comparable volume, after all they were made until 1958!

Hi Peter, if you read back the whole thread you'll see that it's not the 5A that has the angle problem, but the 5B. Also I'm beginning to doubt now if it's really your 130 that came into my possession. The 5A reproducer that came with it was in a sorry state, it was cracked and someone had put 2 extra screws in the back to keep it together. I replaced it with another 5A. Also the motor was clogged up with old graphite grease. I brought it to Jelle Attema who cleaned it out and regreased it. That old grease was almost solid! I bought this 130 from Ko Nootenboom who had in turn bought it on German Ebay.

I inspected the needle shaft of the 5B but as far as I could see there was nothing special there, no snapped off needles or something like that.

[syncopeter]

Hi Bart,

Well the case has the same scratches as mine and Ko bought mine in a job lot together with my whole record collection. My 5a definitely wasn't cracked, it was in great original condition. He may have sold it on and the new owner may have replaced the 5a for a baddie. The motor played at least 3 10 or 2 12 inch records on one winding, without any nasty bangs from the springs.

[Steve E.]

Hi Steve

With regard to the needle tilting inward, I once had a 5A that did this. What I found was that a soft tone needle had snapped off inside leaving a small amount jammed in there, so when I put a new needle in, it was angled. I would get a very small jewellers screw driver and poke around in there to see if this is the case.

Regards Marcel

That makes a LOT of sense. I'll look into that. Thanks!

It was Marcel who sold me the excellent-shape 5A. (It is indeed a different 5B with the angle issue.) The 5A arrived quickly from Australia to the USA, was packed safely, plays great.

[Steve E.]

Well, I'll be. not sure, but I think it's small glob of lead solder in there, specifically on the left side of the "v" behind and opposite the thumbscrew. How'd that happen?

I've been trying to file it out with a tiny file, and it's slowww. I'm tempted to try to melt it out with a red hot sewing needle, but I'm afraid of heating up the needle bar and messing up the contact with the diaphragm.

Any warnings or suggestions?

[Henry]

FWIW, and somewhat off-topic in this thread (but I'll offer my observation anyway), when I chuck a soft-tone steel needle into the triangular hole of my Exhibition, it lodges in one corner of the triangle at a slight angle to the vertical, not at a true right angle. This position seems to be the "natural" one that the needle "wants" (if needles have wants) to assume when the needle screw is tightened. If I futz around with the thing, I can get things to assume a right-angle relationship, but this doesn't seem to have any effect on the sound one way or the other (see bart1927's post, earlier). Therefore, I don't bother with this kind of fine tuning, but instead simply let the needle find its own "seat" in the hole, then I tighten it down, sit back, and enjoy whatever recording is up for the session. Out of sight, etc., etc.

[bart1927]

Hi Bart,

Well the case has the same scratches as mine and Ko bought mine in a job lot together with my whole record collection. My 5a definitely wasn't cracked, it was in great original condition. He may have sold it on and the new owner may have replaced the 5a for a baddie. The motor played at least 3 10 or 2 12 inch records on one winding, without any nasty bangs from the springs.

Now that I'm re-reading your post, I'm suddenly wondering..... when this HMV 130 was in your possession, did it have the wrong escutcheon? When I bought it from our mutual acquaintance in the beige cardigan , the escutcheon was wrong. Also, there was a small crack in the grille, and the veneer on the lid was lifting in several places (looked like water damage). I think I spent at least another 100 euro's on top of it's EUR 275 sales price to restore it to it's current condition.