Restoring VV 4-7 and Need Advice

[cwilliamrose]

Our Victrola has never been usable due to the tone arm support crumbling. I now have a new one but there are some other issues with the machine.

First, I have managed to misplace the screws for the tone arm mount. Are these available and if so, where?



Also, I don't see a bearing race here, not a good one anyway. And the ball size and number of balls is not known.



This part of the bearing race is clear to me.



The joint in the tone arm is a bit of a puzzle. There are balls that ride on the races but the nut that pulls the parts together does not have balls on the back side. This means the nut rotates in some sort of plain bearing. Is this the case? It seems there's some debris where the nut rides on the tone arm which needs to be cleaned (and lubed).

I had bought some 1/16" balls for this joint but I'm not sure they are the correct size.

If the nut is locked in place to the mating tone arm tube, this tube rotates in the nut, correct?



And the stud in this photo seems to be staked in place and does not turn making it impossible to disassemble and clean the parts individually.



This is disappointing. Is it repairable?



The rubber is quite hard and is cracking. I hope there's someone rebuilding these.



This felt gasket's place is the system is unclear to me. It seems to be intended to seal the tone arm to the mounting flange stamping, is this correct?



I got the new tone arm support from George Vollema at Great Lakes Antique Phonograph. It was a good experience and I wouldn't mind sending him more business.

Thanks for the help and the nice forum..........Bill

[Uncle Vanya]

the balls fit into the little half-circle shaped depressions in the race, which is that steel washer. The felt gasket fits in the hole of the motor board, under the assembled tone arm bracket base, so that it helps to tightly seal the connection between the tone arm assembly and the horn. The ball bearings at the tone arm base are sealed with grease.

Your reproducer may be useable, if the diaphragm seal is air-tight. This may be checked by GENTLY blowing into the back of the reproducer. If the reproducer is indeed airtight it may be made useable by replacing the ball bearings around the stylus bar pivot and by replacing the rubber isolator connecting to the tone arm with a new SOFT rubber unit. It would probably be best for you to sent the reproducer off to an experienced rebuilder of orthophonic reproducers such as Wyatt Marcus .

[Uncle Vanya]

The five balls (3/32 or ⅛" balls would be best in this application, by the way) fit into the little half-circle shaped depressions in the race, which is that steel washer. The felt gasket fits in the hole of the motor board, under the assembled tone arm bracket base, so that it helps to tightly seal the connection between the tone arm assembly and the horn. The ball bearings at the tone arm base are sealed with grease.

Your reproducer may be useable, if the diaphragm seal is air-tight. This may be checked by GENTLY blowing into the back of the reproducer. If the reproducer is indeed airtight it may be made useable by replacing the ball bearings around the stylus bar pivot and by replacing the rubber isolator connecting to the tone arm with a new SOFT rubber unit. It would probably be best for you to sent the reproducer off to an experienced rebuilder of orthophonic reproducers such as Wyatt Marcus .

[JerryVan]

Bill,

The screws you lost are a ¼-24 thread and very hard to find. You can probably borrow some from another Victor.

As Uncle Vanya states, you need 5 balls for the tone arm swivel joint. Use plenty of grease as this will help to seal the joint.

The felt washer goes between the plate, (in your 1st & 2nd photos), and the motor board. I usually slather some grease on this felt to aid in sealing the joint.

The swivel joint at your U-Tube requires no ball bearings. The u-tube has a a female conical seat that fits nicely against the tone arm, male conical seat. Put some light grease on the seats and on the small flange that the smooth nut fits against. Thread the smooth nut onto the tone arm until it just begins to tighten. Back off until the arm just becomes free enough to swivel, no more. The tone arm should have a small bracket that fits over the nut and has a set screw. Tighten the set screw to lock the nut adjustment in place.


I'm afraid your reproducer is toast! However, new castings can be purchased and some of your old parts may be reused, so, don't throw anything away.

[phonojim]

George V. probably has the screws you need. As for the reproducer, if it works, leave it alone and use it until you can get another one. Any work you attempt on it could ultimately cause more damage. Last time I checked, Ron Sitko had new Ortho reproducer castings available.

Jim

[cwilliamrose]

¼-24 machine screws? I was thinking they would be wood screws so I need to take another look around. If I don't locate them I'll try George V -- or I could make some if I knew what the head looks like and the proper length.

The reproducer is toast as per Wyatt Marcus (and JerryVan). I'd be afraid the casting would crumble during use if I did put it back in service. It does have a very slight leak which may be the cracks letting air out, maybe the diaphragm is OK??. I'll be looking for a replacement but I'm not thrilled about buying an old pot metal unit that will be prone to fail the same way the other pot metal parts on this machine have failed. If I could find a brass one...... Or I could assemble one from a mix of old and new (cast) parts. Wyatt suggests contacting Ron Haring for a replacement, are there other sources I should try as well?




Do the balls go like this? How can they roll when they are in these cavities?

Understood about the joint -- no balls. That makes sense. I will need to clean the area behind the nut, it sounds gritty when you rotate the nut. Does that stud come out so you can remove the nut or do I just clean it in place as best I can?

Sorry for all the newbie questions. I do appreciate this resource and the willingness of the members to help. Thanks!

[David Spanovich]

The reproducer is toast ... I'm not thrilled about buying an old pot metal unit that will be prone to fail the same way the other pot metal parts on this machine have failed.

You might want to hunt down this type of Orthophonic sound box --



It was used on the VV-2-55 portable, but will fit any Orthophonic tone arm. It's basically the same as a standard Orthophonic sound box--same diaphragm, needle bar pivot, etc.--but it has a mask or face plate to dampen diaphragm noise. Unlike the earlier production Orthophonic sound boxes, the pot metal used in this type was more stable. In 30 years, I've never seen one that was cracked or had crumbled.
------------------------------------------------
As for the ball bearings, you're right about their position. Here's a photo of the assembly showing the ball bearings in their position. It's the back bracket used on the 2-65 portable--the same type you have, just smaller --


MORE ASSEMBLY IMAGES SEE -- http://myvintagetv.com/updatepages1/cha ... r2-65a.htm

HTH,
DS

[JerryVan]

"Do the balls go like this? How can they roll when they are in these cavities?"

Yes, that's where the balls go. As they roll the separator plate moves with them. Everything rolls/moves together as a unit.

You may be right about the woodscrews. I'm thinking more about pre-orthophonic machines. It should be obvious when viewing the mounting holes if a machine screw went there versus a wood screw.

As for being afraid the reproducer would crumble if you tried to use it, don't worry about it, it's already ruined. Get some use out of it if you can until you find another one. Besides, I've seen them way worse. Yours is not going to crumble any time soon.

[alang]

As for being afraid the reproducer would crumble if you tried to use it, don't worry about it, it's already ruined. Get some use out of it if you can until you find another one. Besides, I've seen them way worse. Yours is not going to crumble any time soon.

Yes, your reproducer looks still much better than many I've seen. It should be OK as long as you don't try to disassemble it and don't use any force like trying to replace the hardened rubber. Some people have used crazy glue to carefully stabilize and seal the cracks if you're concerned. I also heard that someone had used a few drops of brake fluid to soften the rubber a bit without disassembling. None of that will fix your reproducer, but you may still get a bit of live out of it until you find a replacement.

Good luck
Andreas

[David Spanovich]

I have to echo the opinions about the usability of your existing Orthophonic sound box, until a better one can be located.

For basic servicing, the guidelines about replacing the ball bearings provided in this short article should help -- http://www.gracyk.com/orthosound.shtml

Ignore the outdated advice I gave about using paper soaked with glue to seal the back rubber flange. I wrote this thing about 15 years ago. If it will come out, without damaging the throat, you can re-mount it with new rubber or even silicone caulk. If the throat area is full of fine line cracks, don't even attempt to turn the screws, because it could crumble. In that case, if the rubber connector is loose, you can probably squire a little silicone into the gap between the hardened rubber and throat to stabilize it.

As for the air leak, that may be due to the side crack in the side of the sound box, visible in the photo. To seal this, work in a tiny amount of silicone caulk--which won't impact the diaphragm if it comes into contact with its edge--and then after it dries, apply a small patch--whatever is thin and airtight--over the area with some Krazy glue, or whatever. This should hold it okay.

For the paper backed rubber gaskets holding the diaphragm in place that you can't get at, as recommended, put a few drops of brake fluid (or similar) onto the edge of the diaphragm, from the front, and swish it around so it coats the entire perimeter. I did the same thing with my 4-40's sound box, only I used Goo-Gone. Like the one you have, my sound box was full of line cracks, but since none had expanded, I coated them all with Krazy Glue. That was ten years ago, and everything is still holding up fine. In fact, it's one of the best sounding Orthophonic reproducers I've ever owned.

HTH,
DS