Strange extra holes on original Victor II

[vlad0002]

Hi all,

I'm new here -- great forum.

I have in my collection an early Victor II machine. I bought it several years ago and authenticity of it was never in doubt, including the time I brought it to a local phonograph shop for cleaning and reprodicer overhaul. One thing the guy noted back then is that reprodicer was upgraded to #2, instead of #1 that originally came with the machine.

Due to financial reasons I now have to sell the machine. However, the buyer drew my attention to an unexplainable fact: the cover has three extra mounting holes that are unused. In addition, on the right side of the machine there's an extra hole at the front, as if the winding handle was in the front at some point, except it's much smaller then the one for the handle. There are also two smaller screw holes, one on each side of that side hole on the INSIDE of the box, as if there was some decorative piece of hardware there. This is a complete puzzle, as the motor is a correct one and is correctly mounted. The box itself is a correct humpback box, very old, with consistent patina. Holes look like they were never used. Front label is very old and look original to the box. Almost as if at assembly some parts that had accomodation for a different motor were used.

Any ideas? Have anyone see something like this with a legitimate explanation?

Any help will be much appreciated.

Thanks.

Vlad

v1.jpg (114.58 KiB) Viewed 1839 times

v2.jpg (122.06 KiB) Viewed 1839 times

v3.jpg (101.77 KiB) Viewed 1839 times

[AZ*]

The back bracket and slip in elbow are from a later machine and were not used on the humpback model. That plus the #2 reproducer and extra holes make it look as if this machine was assembled from parts from multiple machines.

Many potential buyers will spot these irregularities, and that will impact the selling price. Sorry.

[vlad0002]

Thanks for your reply, AZ*.

I did some research, and in the Victor Data Book it sais that Victor II type M (this one, the only one with feet) was a transitional model, from Bevel, used through 1906, to Spiral motor. It seems plausible that some phonograps were cut to be fitted with Bevel motors, but as they ran out of them, were factory fitted with Spiral motors. The fact that the hole on the side has no signes of use (no wear) and no signs of being fitted with escutcheon, supports this version. The screw holes inside are probably from a now missing cover plate for the unneeded hole. How is that for an explanation?

The fitted (not clamped) elbow that did not appear till 1910 is still a mistery, though...

[gramophoneshane]

Im hopeless with Victor models & history, and may well be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading a thread ages ago, about Victor converting some front mount machine cabinets into rear mount machines?
I dont recall if the hump-back was one of them, and I dont even know if the redundant holes match up with front mount hardward either, but reading this thread triggered the thought
I would assume Victor would have plugged such holes anyway when they were in plain view.

[vlad0002]

Thank you, gramophoneshane. Exactly my theory. And those internal screw holes came from some sort of cover/plug for the hole. Again, if it is the wrong motor -- there would be some signs of use/wear (and mounted escutcheon) on the old winding hole.

Vlad

[gramophoneshane]

Thanks for your reply, AZ*.

I did some research, and in the Victor Data Book it sais that Victor II type M (this one, the only one with feet) was a transitional model, from Bevel, used through 1906, to Spiral motor. It seems plausible that some phonograps were cut to be fitted with Bevel motors, but as they ran out of them, were factory fitted with Spiral motors. The fact that the hole on the side has no signes of use (no wear) and no signs of being fitted with escutcheon, supports this version. The screw holes inside are probably from a now missing cover plate for the unneeded hole. How is that for an explanation?

The fitted (not clamped) elbow that did not appear till 1910 is still a mistery, though...

That'll teach me for talking on the phone while posting

This sounds feasible to me, not knowing much about the company and it's products, but I still have to wonder why they wouldn't have plugged all those extra holes before putting it on sale. It just seems odd that a company like Victor, who would have tried to uphold a reputation of quality, would allow a cabinet with fairly obvious holes to leave the factory.
A factory second staff discounter perhaps

I'm not sure if I'm seeing right, but in the forth photo showing the motor, is that another hole drilled through the base board of the cabinet, or just some sort or mark?

[vlad0002]

Yes, you are right, another hole on the bottom. Hmm...

[brianu]

your observations about the motor and extra (crank and motor board) holes may be correct, that this was a transitional model during the production of which victor used two different motor types - and the case may originally have been cut for one motor, then adapted with additional holes for the newer motor that was ultimately used.

but this should have an exhibition reproducer, not a No. 2 - also, there was no No. 1 reproducer. the crank doesn't look right either, regardless of the motor type. and the comments about the back bracket and horn elbow also sound correct, they should not be of the slip in variety, but the more standard, earlier clamp down. for example...

http://phonophan.com/victor2early.html

[JerryVan]

Would a "humpback II" have originally had a panelled horn, versus a black & brass style?

[penman]

This certainly looks like a bevel gear case used with the first double cut spiral motor, all the holes line up. It certainly makes sense, companies did things like this, not wasting left over parts. There was no reason to cover the holes in the top since they would not be seen. A cover on the old crank hole also makes sense. All that said, the bracket etc. definitely looks like it's from a much later machine, and I'm not sure what to make of the crank. The proper crank would be a female thread "curved rod" crank.