Finish advice...

[David Spanovich]

Tim Gracyk's process seems to be an OK one to try, but wouldn't 600 grit still "scratch" the overall surface? In other words, even when you stop sanding, you'll still see a crap-ton of little mini scratches all over the thing, wouldn't you? Rottenstone is mentioned, but the only place I can easily find online that has it is in the UK, and I've never used it before. Would it remove the fine scratches and leave a (relatively) reflective surface?

Actually, that was my process . (note the byline.)

#600 wet or dry (3M) sandpaper is extremely fine. It almost feels smooth to the touch. It DOES have to be used with an oil based lubricant, though. But, if you're concerned, you can test it on an inconspicous area fist. You can also get even finer sandpaper at most well stocked auto repair shops, such as #900.

As for Rotten stone, I believe you can still get it from ASPCO -- http://www.antiquephono.com/cabinet.htm -- at least it's still listed on the page. This place also sells it -- http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2184

HTH,
DS

[larryh]

Personally on that machine I would be most careful which I am sure you already realize. I have used the wipe on kind of cleaners and if done right and allowed to dry really well before trying to wax over them they can be somewhat successful. But since you want to try and come close to the original finish I have some techniques that have worked rather well on medium rough finishes as yours.

I am assuming your cabinet has been somewhat cleaned up as it looks reasonably well except for the rough finish. I then on a Brunswick that was foggy looking due to rough shellac used very fine 300 to 600 finishing sand paper and carefully rubbed with the grain to remove, or level out as much as could be without cutting though the old finish. Its especially risky near the corners to do this but with care much of the roughness can be smoothed considerably. After that I clean up the finish to be sure there is no dust or dirt stuck on the surface, you can use soft brushes and a vacuum with brush attachment to remove any dirt particles.

The hard part is putting on a overcoat of shellac. That it might be a good idea to experiment on some old furniture you have or could get to be sure you understand the technique. Generally you get the canned shellac, being sure the date is current on the bottom of the can. Then you mix gently to avoid a lot of air bubbles, about three parts denatured alcohol to one part shellac. Using a very good clean brush made for applying final finishes you coat one part at a time that is leveled as possible. That is like starting with the back laying the machine on heavy blankets to protect the front surface. You have to learn to have a reasonably full brush as wide as is easily handled and on surfaces like the back and sides where there are raised corner boards you start say a foot or so from the end and carefully brush to the corner along one side returning to the other end. You don't start in the corner or your shellac will be too thick an possibly cause ridges or runs. You then overlap the first section working your way across the side. Its quite tricky to see that the surface is covered completely with not missing spots which is very easy to do. A strong light is needed to angle across so you can look down an see that everything is covered. Quick work is necessary and that is why experimenting till you get the hang of it is a good idea. If you do it right the thinned shellac will flow on and dry quickly with very little notice of overlaps. When its dry, which it will do rather quickly , you can turn the machine to do another side. And finally the top. When the large flat surfaces all have a coat then with a smaller brush you can do the edge and trim pieces being careful not to get the shellac all over the work you just did.

Once its all coated and dry you can take a piece of old felt hat cut in a square or buy a felt rubbing block made for furniture finishing and wipe the surface with it dampened in Baby Oil and then dipped in Whiting. You work it with the grain in even amounts across the surfaces to dull the shiny shellac down to a luster that will look much more like wood than finish. When done you remove the excess whiting with some turpentine ( I think it is) to remove any of the powder. After it dries you can then wax the cabinet to a original type luster .

One thing I failed to mention is that if the cabinet has been waxed which almost always is the case you need to clean it throughly with something like a damp rag with turpentine or naphtha which will clean off the wax without effecting the surface.

I suggest you go on line and read as much as possible about overcoating antiques with shellac to restore the finish and watch for any tips they give as I may be off a bit in some of my products its been a while since I did it. I think I am pretty much correct though.

I am including some photos of two machines. The Brunswick was done as above. The Edison I did try the re amalgamation on due to really lousy but intact finish on the sides, but I had a heck of a time with it leaving a lot of ridges in the finish and causing other problems. I think if you can avoid that its best, although I know a number of people here have some techniques that may work better on that process than I tired which was to brush with denatured alcohol over the surface and when melted then try to level it up. That didn't' work out as I had wished although the finished produce is still much better than where it started. You still need to coat over it when done so if you can avoid the issues of trying to manage an old sticky finish I would.

Larry

[JohnM]

The only photo I could find of a re-amalgamated finish was this in-process one, which isn't illustrative of a complete re-amalgamation, but the worst part of the alligatoring was on the center of the front door of the record cabinet of this B-80 and I started there and worked my way outward. I can't find any completed photos of it, but it looked bitchin' when I was finished.

[antique1973]

Has anyone tried the denatured alcohol method to remove the alligatoring? I would like to try
it out but don't have any rough "experimental" machines at the moment.

[wjw]

The problem I would have, is that (from your photos) while the wood feed has brightened up the appearance, the alligatoring still sticks out like a sore thumb. It no doubt improved it, but I want to (safely) remove or "blend" as many of the shellac cracks in my finish as I can, so when something like that is applied, you just see a deep, glossy finish, instead of highlighted alligatoring.

Tim Gracyk's process seems to be an OK one to try, but wouldn't 600 grit still "scratch" the overall surface? In other words, even when you stop sanding, you'll still see a crap-ton of little mini scratches all over the thing, wouldn't you? Rottenstone is mentioned, but the only place I can easily find online that has it is in the UK, and I've never used it before. Would it remove the fine scratches and leave a (relatively) reflective surface?

It sounds like the alligatoring will be a problem for you, even if improved upon. Considering the intricacy of your cabinet, the sanding of the old shellac would be a serious investment in time and require the patience of a madman so as not to sand too much on edges and mouldings. I like the improvement shown in Andreas' photos, just because with the new sheen you can see the grain of the wood again.
Another option (which most here abhor) is refinishing. Since this is shellac, it can be removed with denatured alcohol 100% and not remove the stain at all. A new shellac finish will best match the glossy interior of the machine and, done properly, will look like it did when new.
By the way, Victor sprayed the shellac on these mahogany machines. Must have saved a zillion man-hours back in the day!

[wjw]

I am including some photos of two machines. The Brunswick was done as above. The Edison I did try the re amalgamation on due to really lousy but intact finish on the sides, but I had a heck of a time with it leaving a lot of ridges in the finish and causing other problems. I think if you can avoid that its best, although I know a number of people here have some techniques that may work better on that process than I tired which was to brush with denatured alcohol over the surface and when melted then try to level it up. That didn't' work out as I had wished although the finished produce is still much better than where it started. You still need to coat over it when done so if you can avoid the issues of trying to manage an old sticky finish I would.

Larry

Larry, these photos show that this ain't your first rodeo. The cabinets look just right to me. The finish is improved, the alligatoring is still there, and you did it with shellac. They're beautiful!

[larryh]

WJW

Thank for the comments. I had redone a number of small machines in Shellac which was brought up from scratch. But the work involved in that is much more than anything that it took to bring the Brunswick back. It really is much quicker than you might think if the finish is just a bit rough as the Victor appears to be. The main thing is to understand the application of the thinned coat or coats of shellac. Granted it is much easier to apply the thin ones than to attempt anything that is much heavier. The thinned coats basically are so thin that even if you overlap by much they are prone to melt into one another. To make a good refinishing job where you take off all the old finish it takes probably 8 to 10 thin coats before the cabinet will take on that depth of finish that comes anywhere near the original. Even then unless you have mastered filling the grain of the wood your still going to have a pebble like finish which may look good, but not quite like the original. I had that problem on the upright Chippendale. Someone had spilled something on the cabinet and the lid and front door were both impossible to save. I had to redo both parts twice with multiple coats before I got it to look even close to what I wanted. Something kept causing the finish to want to crinkle. That is rare with shellac but if the underneath surface has something that reacts to the finish it can do it.

I can see where many would be leery of attempting it and maybe for good reason. It can become a complete mess if you put it on too heavy and it runs or sags or try to apply it to large surfaces that are not flat. I have done the sides of them using the same method and done so upright, but you have to have the shellac thinned just so and not too much in the brush to cause it to run. Not an easy thing to figure out. Some people here use the pad method with good results where you put the shellac on a pad and rotate it over the finish building up layers. I personally never had it do anything but make a mess, but I didn't obviously understand how to make it work.

The best bet to have an close to original look is to save the old finish as much as possible. You end up with the exact color still in tact. You avoid staining anything but maybe a raw edge here or there and thus not he splotchy look that can take place in applying dark stains over something you have tried to strip. And the original filler is left in place so that the finish is the smooth look we expect the old cabinet to have. I never do the underside of the lids and if possible I don't do the motor board area either if possible. I just remove the finish on the lid and lip of the lid if its bad carefully to avoid the underneath being damaged. The exception was the console which was lacquer and in terrible shape.

The important thing to remember when doing it is that it won't look at all like you think it should till you do the rub down after its throughly dry. That is what makes it look solid and not overly shiny as when you haven't yet rubbed it down. Little things that may be showing in the glare of the fresh shellac coats will go away with the final work.

Larry

[FloridaClay]

I suppose the thing I have not worked out yet in my own head, and perhaps never will completely, is just where that “sweet spot” is between leave ‘um alone and making ‘um look like factory new. I prefer somewhere in the middle—attractive but with the character that their years have brought still there. Right now I have a little oak VV-IX that has that pebbly feel on its sides. I keep thinking about smoothing it out so that it will be closer to its original golden oak, but then I take a look at that deep, rich, smoky tone and just can’t bring myself to do it.

Of course some finishes are so far gone they are beyond the pall and you have to be really aggressive, but most are not. What I try to remind myself of is the adage that it is only original once and take a gentle approach. I can always go back and do more if I’m not happy, but if I start off full bore what was there is gone forever.

Clay

[larryh]

Florida,

Thats a perfect question. My response would be that when the old finish is at all able to be saved then you strive to repair it to look as much like it would have originally as possible. But as we all know that won't always be possible. Over the years I have had basket cases like the two edisons and some that while rough, are not gone like the brunswick. I too value that "old" look because in reality almost no refinish job ever looks like the original. That is one thing about using original type finishes which avoid the "Plastic" look too many machines end up with now days. Plus as I mentioned above, once the stripper is applied getting an even and original looking stain not to mention a filler is something that almost no home refinisher comes too close too. Thus as with historic furniture pieces that museums restore, one attempts to keep it as much as possible. Both the edisons I repaired retain the original finish on much of the cabinet but several parts which were beyond repair had to be stripped and matched to the best as I could. I guess the thing here is that if your really picky about your finishes one needs to buy machines that can be cleaned an waxed to restore their former glory. Still with some practice and using the right techniques many machines with some work can be saved and present them selves reasonably well. I had a Victor I that had much of the old finish basically fallen off. I cleaned it off as well as I could and evened the old finish, then applied the stains and lots of thin coats of shellac. To see it one would not have realized it was redone, other than it looked really nice. A friend had one he redid which we compared. His he used poly finishes on, it looked somehow cold and artificial in comparison. I guess if its all you can manage then saving the machine is still better than letting it sit in lousy shape.

Larry

[Bruce]

Hello,

I would like to suggest two products I have come to rely on in restoring my phonographs.
The first is a book by Bob Flexner, "Understanding Wood Finishing", which covers everything from stains, finishes (shellac and Laquer), waxes and repairing finishes (including amalgamating). The author is a long time cabinet maker who researched the chemistry behind different finishes and brands, and he spends a lot of time explaining why and how finishes work and how to best apply them in different situations, which is often contrary to the manufacture's sales pitch.

I favour small outside horn machines in my collection and have applied his advice on an edison and a columbia "right offs", with great results.

For $ 25 I highly recommend the book to anyone wishing to take on a project without the handy advice of an experienced antique restoration expert living next door.

The second product I have found is a polishing compound from France, called Super Nikco, which can be purchased from Johnson String Instruments Inc, Mass., 617-964-0954. This compound is designed to polish fine wood instruments like violins. I have used it to clean off years of grit and grime and return the original polish to amazing sheen in a couple of hours in front of the TV. Please keep in mind my advice works well for smaller machines, and would take serious dedication to restore a cabinet machine. That being said I would recommend this product if you believe that the original finish is still salvageable underneath layers of grime and light alligatoring.

Best of Luck, Bruce