Brown Wax Cylinder Boxes

[52089]

I apologize for not being very clear when mentioning the announcements. I was referring to the announcements on the cylinders in the plain boxes. Weren't there companies that produced and sold their own cylinders as well as Columbia cylinders? I recall reading something about The Kansas City Talking Machine Co. or possibly some other company that manufactured their own cylinders with the announcement stating their company name. The same company also advertised that they sold Columbia cylinders if I remember correctly. (I will try to find where I read that for validation purposes because I may be way off here.) If a smaller company recorded and sold their own cylinders, possibly issuing them in plain boxes, and also sold cylinders for Columbia, it would be feasible that the announcements of the cylinders in the plain boxes might mention that company. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned the announcement maybe having some information to help pinpoint where they were purchased. Sorry for the confusion. : )

Yes, there were certainly smaller companies that produced their own cylinders. I'm attaching a photo of 2 early cylinder boxes from Boston companies. The Bailey and Tripp box is probably just a store sticker, but I'm quite certain that the Eastern Talking Machine Co. produced some of its own cylinders. Sadly, the cylinders in these boxes were not playable. They were very light brown "cafe au lait" color, moldy, and cracked.

[SonnyPhono]

Yes, there were certainly smaller companies that produced their own cylinders. I'm attaching a photo of 2 early cylinder boxes from Boston companies. The Bailey and Tripp box is probably just a store sticker, but I'm quite certain that the Eastern Talking Machine Co. produced some of its own cylinders. Sadly, the cylinders in these boxes were not playable. They were very light brown "cafe au lait" color, moldy, and cracked.

Your boxes are great, thanks for sharing them! I would love to see others like this if anyone has them and would be willing to post a picture.

I found the reference I mentioned in an earlier post about the Kansas City Talking Machine Co. There is a great article on Tim Gracyk's website all about the company, artists who recorded for them and the products they sold. It has some really interesting information. Here is a short excerpt from the article:

"The Kansas City Talking Machine Company, with "office and factory" located at 425 Delaware Street, primarily distributed Columbia products, not only pre-recorded brown wax cylinders but the Columbia Eagle ("Clock-work motor...Price $10.00"), the Columbia Graphophone ("larger and more finely finished than the Eagle"), the "New Graphophone Nickel-In-The-Slot Machine" ($20), hearing tubes, "nickel connections," belts, speaking tubes, main springs.

...the company made and sold its own recordings, over a thousand titles. These cylinders recorded in Kansas City sold for fifty cents, or a dozen for five dollars. The catalog states, "All records with our announcement on and bought direct from us are fully warranted to be originals and not duplicates" (emphasis added). The catalog states, "[W]e have no agents."

A few of these cylinders exist today, and announcements do indeed identify them as Kansas City Talking Machine Company products."

This information suggests the possibility that the cylinders in the plain boxes I have may be from a small company that produced their own records and sold Columbia cylinders as well. If that's the case, maybe the announcements on those cylinders will help determine a more accurate date of production. It's a long shot, but I will have to wait until I have a suitable reproducer to play them.

[HisMastersVoice]

Here's one of my Edison boxes, I jut love the way the cotton is sewn in on these:

And then 2 styles of Pathé Boxes, the outside has a strange alligator texture:

[phonogfp]

I apologize for not being very clear when mentioning the announcements. I was referring to the announcements on the cylinders in the plain boxes. Weren't there companies that produced and sold their own cylinders as well as Columbia cylinders? I recall reading something about The Kansas City Talking Machine Co. or possibly some other company that manufactured their own cylinders with the announcement stating their company name. The same company also advertised that they sold Columbia cylinders if I remember correctly. (I will try to find where I read that for validation purposes because I may be way off here.) If a smaller company recorded and sold their own cylinders, possibly issuing them in plain boxes, and also sold cylinders for Columbia, it would be feasible that the announcements of the cylinders in the plain boxes might mention that company. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned the announcement maybe having some information to help pinpoint where they were purchased. Sorry for the confusion. : )

And I apologize for misunderstanding your statement. As 52089 noted, there were a number of small companies that recorded locally. During the North American Phonograph Company period (1888-1894) virtually all the local companies recorded their own records on some scale, and this activity continued throughout the 1890s and into the first years of the 20th century. Recording companies included Walcutt & Miller, Norcross, Reed & Dawson, Peter Bacigalupi, the Chicago Talking Machine Company, Leeds, Burke & Rous, and many other firms. I have a cylinder announced as having been recorded by the Columbian [note the "n")Phonograph Company of Rochester, New York. This must have been a tiny operation! It would great if one of your records contained an announcement other than Columbia or Edison. Keep us posted!

George P.

[gramophoneshane]

Here's one of my Edison boxes, I jut love the way the cotton is sewn in on these:

Brandon,

I'm wondering if the Edison box you posted has a "Form No." listed anywhere on the label, or patent dates?

The earliest Edison box I have uses the same basic decorative pattern as yours, but instead of being orange, mine is printed in grey (pictured below). It also includes a photo of Edison, & a patents box is also added. The last patent date is listed as Oct 1, 1901, and the label is Form No.300- April 10, 1902.
I'm not sure if this was the last (or second last) brown wax label, or if early gold moulded cylinders were sold in these.

The next box was identical to this one, except the form number was changed to No.450- May 10, 1903. I dont own an example of this box, so I'm not sure what the last patent date is listed as.

The next box was the first to add "Gold Moulded" between the words "Edison" & "Record", however it still uses Form No.450- May 10, 1903, as on the previous different label, and lists the last patent date as Nov 18, 1902.

I've always found label variations interesting, and form numbers & patent dates make it a little easier to form a timeline for the boxes, so I'd be very greatful if you could look for a Form Number.
There's obviously no patents listing on yours, & I really dont know when Edison introduced the "Form Number system" on all his printed items, so Im curious if the F/N system was in use right from the start of Edison using labels on his boxes.
I also find it intreguing that some labels that appear to be the same use different form numbers, and that some different labels use the same form number lol.

[edisonphonoworks]

This is a good, cleaned up scan of the Edison label, from circa 1898-1899 I though took the right side information off, as I used it for some of my own record boxes, for the brown wax records I made, it had additional information typed in the right with a 2006-2007 date. then I when I was admonished by the Charles Edison fund to no longer use the label,that they own the trademark and image of Thomas A Edison, and that I please stop using the name. Now we know who does, and that mystery is solved. It took them almost twenty years to tell me this!!! *(I have a high school tapes that call me "The Edison Recording People, when I recorded my junior prom in 1992.

[edisonphonoworks]

Gramophone Shane, I think that your box was used for the very last brown wax records, and the earliest black, flat end signature Molded records, it is a rather hard box to find, I have seen the last incarnation with a 1903 patent date. Although as you said the big fat Edison Gold Moulded box with the spindle in the center has a last date of 1902, kind of confusing! I know that the grey box was positively used for the flat end molded records, there was a whole box of New Old Stock at Union, a lot of about 75 that VeeJay Seth booth a few years ago and they were the flat end moulded wrapped in cotton batting with a record ticket pasted to the outside of the box. These early moulded records seem to be difficult to find in good shape!

[HisMastersVoice]

Brandon,

I'm wondering if the Edison box you posted has a "Form No." listed anywhere on the label, or patent dates?

Shane,

After further inspection, I was not able to find any patent dates or form numbers anywhere on or in the box.

[52089]

Allan Koenigsberg's book on Edison 2 minutes wax pictures 5 box labels prior to the Gold Moulded series:

A: No Edison photo, no patent dates
B: Edison photo (all subsequent have an Edison photo as well), no patent dates
C: Last patent date Sept. 11, 1900
D: Last patent date OCt. 1, 1901
E: Last patent date Nov. 11, 1902

After that there are 4 Gold Moulded labels, 2 Edison Record labels, and the scarce Edison Standard Record label. I know of at least one more Gold Moulded label he does not picture (different patent dates).

I can post more info on these if anyone is interested.

[phonogfp]

Here's another thing to ponder regarding how quickly Columbia reflected its office locations on its literature. Below are the front and rear covers of the Columbia record list for June 1897. The Paris office is not yet listed. Is it certain that it was opened in/around March 1897?

In any event, the presence of "Chicago" on the earliest Columbia box dates it no earlier than 1897 if the 1899 Annual Report is to be believed. The rear cover (below) seems to have Chicago added at the bottom of the other office locations, with no street address, so I would infer that Chicago opened around June 1897 - unless the literature was truly slow in reflecting these office locations.

George P.