Correct reproducer for ERJ Monarch?

[DrGregC]

I need our panel of experts to weigh in on this question. Which reproducers are correct and original to the early 1901 Eldridge R. Johnson Monarchs?

I have a machine that I believe to be original & complete. Even though the tag says "Victor - made by - Eldridge R. Johnson" it has a Victor Talking Machine Co. branded Concert reproducer. It has been suggested to me that the correct reproducer would be an ERJ branded Concert or a New Century. I have checked all of my references and cannot find an answer.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks!

[gramophone78]

I would say that if the machine is marked "ERJ" then it would of had a "ERJ" "New Century" or a "ERJ" Exhibition (depending the month it was made)or a up grade "ERJ" concert reproducer. Your reproducer seems to be at least a year later then the machine. I would bet that machine had a "NC" and then later the owner improved to a "VTM" concert. There is one of these machines on Ebay right now and it has a "ERJ" concert.

[DrGregC]

Actually, I wrote to the eBay seller and he responded, "It is a Victor Concert reproducer, not a Johnson. I am not sure if any of the Monarchs carried the Johnson name like the A,B, and Cs did."

Therein lies the confusion...

[gramophone78]

Sorry my bad....I mean't to write the machine on Ebay now is a VTM labeled model with a VTM concert reproducer. Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks....?????. There is still no reason that the originak owner of your machine did not up grade back in the day????.

[phonogfp]

Which reproducers are correct and original to the early 1901 Eldridge R. Johnson Monarchs?

I have a machine that I believe to be original & complete. Even though the tag says "Victor - made by - Eldridge R. Johnson" it has a Victor Talking Machine Co. branded Concert reproducer.

It's so tempting for us collectors to draw nice straight lines to delineate what's correct and what's not. I think it's human nature, based on an attempt to understand what we're dealing with. Unfortunately, such strict pigeonholing doesn't always hold true. We've set "rules" such as ,"All Victor 0s were sold with a special sound box." Or, "Edison Gems had single pinstripes on the Model Bs and multiple pinstripe decals on the Model Cs." Neither of these is exclusively true, although they represent what's most commonly seen. I've had egg on my face many times over the years after believing such conventional wisdom. Nowadays when I'm asked if something is correct (other than frankenphones and crapophones), the most negative thing I'll say is, "Well, I've never seen one like that." What more can one guy accurately say? There's tons of stuff I've never seen.

So - - were ERJ machines ever sold with VTMCo sound boxes? How will we ever know outside of finding an unopened crate and discovering such a combination inside? As Gramo78 points out, original owners may have upgraded the sound box when the machine was a year old in 1902. Or an old-stock Monarch may have been shipped to the dealer in 1901 with an ERJ New Century or Exhibition, but after sitting around for a couple of years, a customer bought it and wanted a Concert sound box - which the dealer supplied from his new stock. A number of perfectly plausible circumstances could have happened with any particular machine to result in some variation from our neat, orderly collectors' world. I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep over a VTMCo Concert on an ERJ Monarch.

A morning glory horn on an Eagle Graphophone? Collectors may scoff, but Sears sold them that way in 1906.

The more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know!

George P.

[gramophone78]

I would like to add one other thing that not a lot of today's collectors know...."trade in". Victor had a trade in policy. One of my early Vic 6's is a great example of this. The company allowed the customer to trade in their old model for a modern machine. Victor would then refurbish these machines and sell them again though a authorized dealer. Normally the machine will have a paper tag (see below). I often wonder if this is when my 6 lost it's #10 & black fiber horn for a Exhibition and word horn???. Based on the original paper, this machine did have the #10 on it.

[Henry]

Or an old-stock Monarch may have been shipped to the dealer in 1901 with an ERJ New Century or Exhibition....
George P.

It wouldn't have shipped with an Exhibition in 1901, since the Exhibition wasn't formally introduced until 1904 at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

[penman]

Or an old-stock Monarch may have been shipped to the dealer in 1901 with an ERJ New Century or Exhibition....
George P.

It wouldn't have shipped with an Exhibition in 1901, since the Exhibition wasn't formally introduced until 1904 at the Louisiana Purchase Exposition.

Not so. The New Century morphed into the Exhibition sometime in 1901. A previous thread discussed a very early ER Johnson marked Exhibition, where the needle bar is not screwed to the diaphragm, like the NC.

[gramophone78]

Yes, that is true. The New Century did become the ERJ Exhibition. Most seem to feel the NC was short lived ...maybe less then one year tops. Then (as far as I know) a ERJ marked Exhibition was issued. The concert (ERJ)was already on the market as a "option" on most if not all machines at the start. I'm sure we can get George to narrow down some of the info for us all.......

[phonogfp]

I only wish I could! Beyond what Gramo78 has noted, I can't add much. We know the Exhibition was available in 1901 through examples marked ERJ. VTMCo wasn't incorporated until Oct. 1901 so Johnson-marked examples presumably predate that. Exactly when the Exhibition was introduced in 1901 may be open to debate, but it was prominently illustrated and described in Victor's 1902 catalog.

Henry, could you satisfy my curiosity - - where did you see the claim that the Exhibition was introduced in 1904?

George P.