An interesting Red Seal

[FloridaClay]

I picked up several 78s while rummaging through an antique store over the weekend. Among them was an RCA Victor Red Seal set of Richard Strauss’ “Also Sprach Zarathustra” by the Boston Symphony, set M 257. It is 9 sides on 5 12” records.

What is unusual about it, for a later post-acoustic recording, is that the last record is one-sided rather than having some fill piece on the 10th side and the reverse has a rather elaborate embossed pattern. While I see some of this sort of thing on some early one-sided acoustics, I don’t recall seeing it before on a later set like this one.

On the labeled sides in the run-out area is embossed “VE” inside an oval and, sequentially on each side in another area of the run-out, 88903 through 88911. Those numbers (matrix numbers?) also appear in small type on the label in parentheses. In larger type is, I guess a record number ranging from 8619-A 8619-B to, on side 9, 8623-S.

Clay

[OrthoSean]

Clay,

Is the set really just "M" or is it a "DM" or "AM" prefix? The reason for the spiral in the blank sided disc was usually so if these were stacked on a changer the needle would hit the spiraling groove and the disc would reject. I've seen this on many Victor sets, but I can't recall seeing this on an "M" set, but memory could fail me!

Sean

[Wolfe]

I've see those here and there, looking at classical sets. I'd say they're not common, and not that unique either. I don't think I've even deigned to purchase one yet.
I do have electrical Victor set M-22, Franck's Symphony in D-Minor, conducted by Stokowski, that has one of the discs single sided, though not embossed.

Somewhere in the dim reaches of memory I recall reading of some conductor who refused to record little bon-bon / filler pieces for his sets, so they were often issued with blank sides. Don't remember who it was or how true it is.

[Henry]

I have a similar embossed one in red vinyl; these are impressive!

[FloridaClay]

Clay,

Is the set really just "M" or is it a "DM" or "AM" prefix? The reason for the spiral in the blank sided disc was usually so if these were stacked on a changer the needle would hit the spiraling groove and the disc would reject. I've seen this on many Victor sets, but I can't recall seeing this on an "M" set, but memory could fail me!

Sean

Hey Sean,

Yes it is an M set. Record one is sides 1 & 2, record 2 is sides 3 and 4, etc. There is no spiral on the blank side, just the fancy embossed pattern you see with RCA Victor in big letters and the RCA and Victor logos. There are 3 concentric rings in the pattern, but they are just for decoration. They do not track.

That it is an M set, together with the VE in an oval suggest to me that the recording could have been made in the 20s, although the ring style label on the set looks to date from the early 40s (still has RCA Manufacturing Co., Inc. on the lower label). In other words, it might have been a reissue set from old matrices. I have all the records in the set and they are pristine, but unfortunately the original album they came in is missing.

My curiosity now aroused, I will do a bit more digging in some of my reference stuff and post it if I find out more.

Clay

[FloridaClay]

One more piece of the puzzel. The conductor is Serge Koussevitzky, who conducted the Boston Symphony Orchestra from 1924 to 1949.

Clay

[Wolfe]

the recording could have been made in the 20s, although the ring style label on the set looks to date from the early 40s (still has RCA Manufacturing Co., Inc. on the lower label). In other words, it might have been a reissue set from old matrices.

That was what I was thinking. Especially since your set is probably pressed on a thinner more breakable looking shellac than what Victor was using in the 1920's (not to mention that it wouldn't have an RCA logo either.) At least going by my examination of sets I've seen like yours (which isn't many.)

I mean, Victor / RCA Victor was using the embossing until when? Until the 'end' of single sided red seals in 1923, right? Then did they stop for a time in the scroll era, like with my Stokowski set? And then pick it up again? Was that nasty shellac that Victor was using in the late 20's unable to properly take the impression of the ornate embossed design?

[Wolfe]

Clay,

Is the set really just "M" or is it a "DM" or "AM" prefix? The reason for the spiral in the blank sided disc was usually so if these were stacked on a changer the needle would hit the spiraling groove and the disc would reject. I've seen this on many Victor sets, but I can't recall seeing this on an "M" set, but memory could fail me!

Sean

Hey Sean,

Yes it is an M set. Record one is sides 1 & 2, record 2 is sides 3 and 4, etc. There is no spiral on the blank side, just the fancy embossed pattern you see with RCA Victor in big letters and the RCA and Victor logos. There are 3 concentric rings in the pattern, but they are just for decoration. They do not track.

That it is an M set, together with the VE in an oval suggest to me that the recording could have been made in the 20s, although the ring style label on the set looks to date from the early 40s (still has RCA Manufacturing Co., Inc. on the lower label). In other words, it might have been a reissue set from old matrices. I have all the records in the set and they are pristine, but unfortunately the original album they came in is missing.

My curiosity now aroused, I will do a bit more digging in some of my reference stuff and post it if I find out more.

Clay

I think 'Sean' may be feeling a little confused by your post. So just leave him alone for a bit, 'kay? He'll have your answer.

[HisMastersVoice]

There is no spiral on the blank side, just the fancy embossed pattern you see with RCA Victor in big letters and the RCA and Victor logos. There are 3 concentric rings in the pattern, but they are just for decoration. They do not track

If the disc in the photo is your disc, it's definitely a spiral. Either that, or I've had too much to drink.

[FloridaClay]

There is no spiral on the blank side, just the fancy embossed pattern you see with RCA Victor in big letters and the RCA and Victor logos. There are 3 concentric rings in the pattern, but they are just for decoration. They do not track

If the disc in the photo is your disc, it's definitely a spiral. Either that, or I've had too much to drink.

Have somebody hide the key to the liquor cabinet.

Absolutely no spiral grove. There is no need for one because this is a "M" (for "Manual") prefix set, made for use on phonographs that do not have an automatic changer. The automatic changer sets, which Sean mentioned, are AM prefix sets (for slide automatic changers) and DM prefix sets (for drop automatic changers). The differences are in the order in which the sides appear on the individual records--so that you only had to flip each record over to go to the next part on manual sets, or so that the records would be changed in the correct when loaded on a phonograph with a changer. There is a nice little chart showing how that works on page 172 of "The Collector's Guide to Victor Records," revised second edition. (May be in previous editions too, but not certain as I don't have copies.)

I don't know if AM and/or DM sets of this work were also released. If somebody out there has one, it would be interesting to know how side 10 was treated on those sets.

Clay