Can an Edison Diamond Disc machine play other vertical cuts?

[52089]

I suppose the answer to my own question is "Yes, but..."

I own a few Operaphone records, which are vertical cut discs, and have nothing I can play them on properly. Just for grins, I put a stack of 2 on my C-150 (they have to be stacked because the reproducer is set to play Diamond Discs which are ¼" thick) and genty lowered the reproducer. To my surprise, the record played quite well, but I quit after 10 seconds or so because I didn't want to risk damaging either the record or the reproducer.

Again, just for grins, I tried this with a stack of 2 vertical cut Pathés and got the same result. I did not see any obvious problems with either the records or the reproducer.

So, does anyone do this regularly? Are there any reasons not to? I'm sure that the mechanical feed of the Edison doesn't exactly correspond to the grooves, but is there any harm in doing this?

(Edited to correct Operadisc to Operaphone.)

[HisMastersVoice]

By Operadisc, do you mean Opera Disc Company? If so, those are not vertical cut, and are not cheap or easy to find... As for Pathé, those need to be played with a sapphire, the diamond stylus is not the same size and will also damage the grooves. I would stick to Diamond Discs.

[alang]

I have a 78 adaptor for my DD machine, it can twist around to play vertical discs like Pathés. It has a second hole in the needle bar for a Pathé sapphire and works reasonably well - as well as these 78 adaptors work. I am not surprised that ad Edison DD reproducer makes sound, but I too would be concerned about the records. The diamond is harder and smaller I think, and also the weight of a DD reproducer is higher I think. Biggest problem would be the movement of the reproducer forced by the feedscrew, if the grooves are a different size. My 78 adaptor does not have that problem, because it has joints for both horizontal and vertical movement.
Andreas

[Valecnik]

By Operadisc, do you mean Opera Disc Company? If so, those are not vertical cut, and are not cheap or easy to find... As for Pathé, those need to be played with a sapphire, the diamond stylus is not the same size and will also damage the grooves. I would stick to Diamond Discs.

I agree, with a diamond disc reproducer play only diamond disc records. Pathé vertical cuts have an entirely different groove shape designed for that sapphire button stylus. The earliest and most interesting imho Pathé records are center start so it would be impossible to play them on a DD machine no matter what reproducer you used.

One of the later adaptable reproducers with the proper sapphire ball stylus would play the later Pathé vertical cut discs on a DD machine.

[52089]

By Operadisc, do you mean Opera Disc Company? If so, those are not vertical cut, and are not cheap or easy to find... As for Pathé, those need to be played with a sapphire, the diamond stylus is not the same size and will also damage the grooves. I would stick to Diamond Discs.

Sorry, my bad, I meant Operaphone, not Operadisc. Operaphones are 8 inch (mostly) vertical cuts. I will edit my original post as well.

(I do actually have some Opera Disc Company records, mostly Carusos, that I got at a rummage sale years ago. As you noted, they are definitely lateral cut and play just fine on a regular Victrola.)

[VintageTechnologies]

52089: you touch on a subject I have long thought about myself, properly playing those vertical cut records such as Operaphone, Par-O-Ket, Aeolian Vocalian, and doubtless others. I think they were originally played with a conventional steel needle. I don't expect they held up very long, being played with a needle that progressively wears down. Most of mine sound very scratchy from wear. Even if the thread pitch is the same, I think the Edison Diamond Disc reproducer would also be pretty tough on them, due to heavy weight and hard diamond. I therefore play mine on a modern pickup that is wired for vertical records. By comparison, the Pathé and Edison records should last a very long time, played on their respective machines. Don't play vertical-cut Pathés with a steel needle or Edison reproducer; that will quickly ruin them. Several companies, such as Fletcher, made adapters with rotating heads that will play Pathés on an Edison with a sapphire ball needle. In fact, there is a Fletcher on eBay right now (251065919739) that would have to be overhauled.

[estott]

Don't play shellac records with a Diamond Disc reproducer- you'll ruin the grooves and most probably the stylus as well. Most vertical cut records are not cut to the same thread count as an Edison disc- they may play for a few grooves but will eventually start to repeat.

Early Operaphone, Okeh, Gennet and Vocalion discs were intended to be played with a steel needle. Operaphone discs have a very fine cut which squeezes the material from a 10 inch disc onto 8 inches. They are very prone to wear and developing repeat grooves. Later Operaphone discs are conventional lateral.

Rex vertical cut discs play with a sapphire ball. I don't know about Par O Ket.

Early Emerson discs are supposed to have a 45 degree "Universal Cut" but play best as laterals.

[52089]

52089: you touch on a subject I have long thought about myself, properly playing those vertical cut records such as Operaphone, Par-O-Ket, Aeolian Vocalian, and doubtless others. I think they were originally played with a conventional steel needle. I don't expect they held up very long, being played with a needle that progressively wears down. Most of mine sound very scratchy from wear. Even if the thread pitch is the same, I think the Edison Diamond Disc reproducer would also be pretty tough on them, due to heavy weight and hard diamond. I therefore play mine on a modern pickup that is wired for vertical records. By comparison, the Pathé and Edison records should last a very long time, played on their respective machines. Don't play vertical-cut Pathés with a steel needle or Edison reproducer; that will quickly ruin them. Several companies, such as Fletcher, made adapters with rotating heads that will play Pathés on an Edison with a sapphire ball needle. In fact, there is a Fletcher on eBay right now (251065919739) that would have to be overhauled.

Yes, I'm quite sure the Operadiscs were meant to be played with a regular steel needle. Someday I'll have to rewire a stereo cartridge for verticals and give that a try. I suspect I'll probably pick up a Brunswick Ultona along the way too so that I can play alittle of enerything on it.

Out of curiousity, I just measured the actual tracking weight of a Edison DD repro and a Victor Exhibition to see waht the difference was. I recently got a small pocket scale at Harbor Freight and this was a good way to use it. The DD created roughly 101 grams of force, and the Exhibition (with needle) created 112, so in fact the Exhibition is pushing down on the records slightly harder than the Edison!

[estott]

I think it's also the angle of the stylus that factors in. The Victor steel needle is at an angle which avoids cutting into the shellac. The Edison diamond is vertical and must be in good condition to avoid scratching the surface.

[VintageTechnologies]

I suspect I'll probably pick up a Brunswick Ultona along the way too so that I can play a little of everything on it.

I own two Brunswicks with the 3-way Ultona heads and have made an unhappy discovery - they don't seem to track some Pathé records as well as a Pathé machine can. Even though the tonearms have a sliding weight to adjust the stylus pressure, and the reproducer can be rotated, some records skip no matter what adjustment I make. I think there is too much mass in the head to track a too shallow or eccentric groove, or warped record. I held a 6' framer's level up to the cabinet on all sides and shimmed the casters to assure the machines stood perfectly straight and plumb on a solid concrete floor. The 78's and Edisons track just fine.