Advice on refinishing under lid

[a12548]

I picked up a VV IX, refinishing is no problem, but im debating how to handle the badly speckled/alligatored under lid and maintaining the label. I know many say to leave the lid, but its to unsightly when light reflects off it, it will be a focal point of distraction after the unit is restored.
I know there are decals available online but I was wondering if a 'surgical' refinish around the label with a Q-tip or other fine tipped tool was ever done. Or is there a mild solution that would clean just the top layer over the decal w/o damaging it, enough to get by with doing the rest of the lid in conventional way.

[Jerry B.]

I'd strip it all off and apply a Gregg Cline decal. It will look perfect. Any decals prior to his look fake and can be spotted from across the room. But Gregg's decals are different. With his decals you need a magnifying glass and know what you are looking for to tell the difference. They literally took refinishing to another level. There are several problems if you try to save the original decal. First, it is time consuming and difficult to work stripper up to the edge of the decal and then work away from the decal. Secondly, you see original finish through spots on the original decal. For your finished product to look really good, you'll have to match the refinished areas perfectly to the original color. It would be a simple decision for me.
*
From a refinishers point of view, the best compliment you can receive is the question "Is this phonograph refinished?". When you hear this question, you know you've done a good job. In my opinion, your best chance to reach this goal is to strip the entire machine and apply a new decal. Jerry Blais

[kirtley2012]

im presuming that the speckles are with the shellac, someone suggested to me for my fireside dissolving the finish and spreading it around again to make it look ok, you may be able to try that with this, dissolve the finish with alcohol(cant remember the type needed), spread it around as if you were applying a new finish and it should look better, if that doesnt work, then go with what jerry suggests

[alang]

My biggest concern or regret would be with the dealers tag visible at the bottom. I agree that Gregg has amazing replacement decals, but obviously not for the dealers decal. Since you can always refinish, I would try to re-amalgamate the finish first and see how it looks afterwards.
Good luck
Andreas

[Jerry B.]

If the Victrola were mine and I wanted the dealer decal, I would take a really good photo with a measurement and inquire with Gregg about the possibility of having that made also. Jerry

[martinola]

Hi a12548!
I'll second what Jerry B says about stripping up to the edge of decals and his endorsement of Gregg Cline's reproduction decals. If you go the full "strip off and refinish" route, Gregg's decals are great and I've used them with excellent results. BUT, before you go that route, as Kirtley mentioned, there is a method that's worth a try which might save the entire interior finish. (If it doesn't work you can always strip it off and refinish it afterward.) Obviously, the original decal and finish is to be preferred if it can be made presentable. Yours seems to have the additional interest of having an added dealer decal, which gives extra history of your machine. If you're interested in trying it, here's what I'd do:

The first thing I'd do is to get the best, sharpest, undistorted close-up photos of both decals. (Use a tripod and a slightly telephoto setting on your zoom lens - the telephoto lens will help flatten the image.) This will be part of your machine's documentation of its current condition.

The next thing would be to get any oil, dirt or wax off. For that, I'd do a wipe-down with Mineral Spirits (Paint Thinner). Be careful not to rub the decals much. The dealer decal will be especially vulnerable as it probably was applied on top of the finish. The Victrola decal probably has at least one protective coat of shellac on top of it. In any case, go real easy. If it looks like the decal might flake-off, I'd even skip cleaning the decal at this point. After that I'd use some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper and a small block to flatten the worst of the rough surface. Don't get too close to the decals when doing this. The object is to only smooth the surface somewhat and not to remove finish unnecessarily. Follow up by another wipe-down with Mineral Spirits and tack cloth to get up all the dust. Let it dry.

Working on a flat surface, using a nice, big, soft artist's brush (camel hair, sable or the like) paint on some denatured alcohol. Work each area slightly. Don't worry too much about perfect smoothness until much later in the process. The decals will be areas of especial care. Make only one pass over the Victrola decal (don't work it in at all). For some protection of the dealer decal, use Zinnser clear shellac thinned 1:1 with Denatured Alcohol and do one careful pass over it. Don't fret over any boo-boos at this point. After it's dried a couple of hours, make another pass over the entire surface of the interior of the lid with the clear shellac diluted 1:1. Again, be careful over the decals. After drying, make another pass of shellac with a stronger dilution (2 parts Shellac and 1 part Denatured Alcohol). Don't lay it on too thick. After drying, repeat laying on the Shellac (2:1 dilution) about 3 or 4 more times. Let dry between coats.

Set the whole thing aside for a week or two to harden-up. After it hardens-up, sand it with 220 grit to flatten it somewhat. After cleaning off dust with a tack cloth, if you need to spot-in color, this would be the time to do it. After that, I'd repeat the process with the shellac and build up about 4 more coats, let cure a week or two and repeat once or twice more. The last sanding should be 400 or 600 grit wet/dry sandpaper, followed-up by a light polishing with polishing compound. I use the white auto body compound. If you find there are too many white bits in the crevices, use some black wax shoe polish to make 'em disappear.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I've actually used this process and find it very rewarding. Doubtless others have their own refinements and versions. That's part of the fun of salvaging the past. Good luck, and let us know (pictures are nice ) how it goes.

Best Regards,

Martin

[Jerry B.]

True story... In August I was attending the Antique Phonograph Society sale in Buena Park, CA. While there a very experienced collector asked my opinion on a early two clip Edison Standard. The machine looked great plus it had a Peter Bacigalupi dealer decal on the cabinet. I thought it was well worth the asking price. That is until I saw a early Suitcase Home with the same decal. I asked the seller if the decals were reproduction and, to his credit, he replied they were new and he was attempting to make slightly plain machines a little more interesting. The Cline decals are that good. Jerry Blais

[a12548]

Martin, thanks for the detailed post.. I will try your method first before going the refinish/ new decal route. When I get to the part of sanding with the 220 grit..that includes over the decal area? Im worried after all that prep, that id screw it up. Just wanna be sure.
As for the dealer label, it is squared off, and very easy to work around.
Its worth a try..thanks!

[martinola]

Hi a12548!

Yes, after you've built up about 4 coats of finish over everything (including both decals), you'll want to sand very, very carefully over the decal areas as well. It's just to smooth it out a little bit. Obviously, you'll want a very light touch so as not to tear through the finish and the decals. After you've built up more finish over the decals, you'll be able to smooth that area out a bit more. Just take your time and slowly build up the finish.

One thing I'd check before you get too involved with this is to verify that somebody hasn't over-coated the whole thing in polyurethane. You'll know pretty quickly if that's been done because the Denatured Alcohol won't melt Polyurethane. If that's the case, then I'd be getting a quote from Gregg Cline for making some decals.

Best Regards and good luck!
Martin

[a12548]

Hi Martin, An update, while prepping the surface area, I noticed long streaks of bubbled up areas. I had no choice but to slice and reglue and clamp them back down. Although, I will keep your process in mind for future projects, I think ill just go the refinish/new decal route. Clines website describes the decal application, have you had good success with application? thanks