Buying on EBay - the inexperienced shipper and damage

[briankeith]

I wanted to throw this out for opinions. I buy on EBay, Craigs List, etc. like probably everyone here does from time to time. What concerns me lately is how people who are not familiar with packing and shipping a talking machine cause more harm than good. Case in point: A good friend of mine and fellow collector living in South Dakota bought a red-banner Edison Home last year that was shipped to his house complete, not taken apart. (motor board, lid, case, reproducer, carriage, etc.) And of course the seller shipped it using UPS ground. Even though it was double boxed with lots of bubble wrap and old newspaper, the wood case got broken in several pieces and there was some other damage I recall. Most sellers in my opinion, even antique shops, are clueless to how fragile a talking machine is, especially the Edison cylinder phonographs. We all know that they should be carefully taken apart and packed up piece by piece, in separate boxes, BUT most sellers really don't know how to, or want to bother to do that extra work when it comes to disassembly and shipping. Too much more, too little time? It has recently become a nightmare for me too and I am starting to buy a lot less off of EBay because of this problem. We collectors on the other hand know how to take the machines apart, and how to correctly package them up so shipping companies like UPS can play hard-ball with them without any damage. (hopefully)

[dennis]

How would you safely wrap/pack a motor board and motor unit, separately from its wooden case? How would you protect the delicate parts; for example, the governor?

[briankeith]

That's my point. I have only shipped one phonograph, an Edison Standard that I had two of. I shipped the case in one double boxed carton, the lid in another double boxed carton, the upper works in another, and the reproducer and horn in another carton. I packed two smaller boxes into one big box so I actually shipped two large boxes separately. The upper works were carefully bubble wrapped and packed in Styrofoam peanuts and the gov. was protected by lots of soft tissue. My point was it took alot of time and effort to do it right and I don't think the average EBay-er - Craig's List seller spends all that time which is why machines are shipped as one complete unit in one big box left to get tumbled around by the carrier of the sellers choice, most likely UPS.

[kirtley2012]

I have stopped buying from eBay/inexperienced shippers for 2 reasons, you've heard of my Edison home disaster Which is still not fixed and I have not seen a penny back and also the overwhelming prices usually.
People on this forum DO know the right price and DO know how to ship them, I was almost not going to buy from the USA any more untill my faith was restored by a member of this forum, the Columbia Q was packed like nothing else!, completely dusmanteled then well packed with the motor in a separate box, it arrived like it left!

[briankeith]

There are so many really cool looking and unusual machines being offered on EBay-UK, EBay-France, and EBay-Germany just to name a few. I totally understand the shipping cost are SUPER EXPENSIVE but it's the seller's packing that really concerns me. I would love to buy a funky red, blue, or green HMV portable from across the pond, but I am unsure of the survival rate after it goes through customs, etc. I took a big chance back in 2007 and bought a strange looking portable Pathé' cylinder phonograph from a seller in France. Yes he did a fantastic job of packing it up BUT customs did a horrible job of unpacking and repacking the phonograph. They re-taped it using bright blue tape! I was lucky that only the horn received a very small dent that the seller assured me was not there when he packed the horn up. And I believe him because he is a Gramophone collector in France with a very nice collection, maybe even a member of this forum???? Are you out there my friend???? (I assume it was customs blue tape anyway)

[Jerry B.]

I would suggest:
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#1 The buyer should send detailed suggestions to the seller detailing dismantling and packing.
*
#2 The buyer should be willing to have the item professionally packed following the buyers suggestions and the professional packers best materials and efforts. The buyer should insist on insurance.
*
#3 The buyer should insist on good detailed photos of the item prior to shipping and save the photos.
*
#4 If you receive a package that appears damaged on the outside, don't rush to open it. Take a few moments and take photos. Open the carton and take photos of the packing materials. Finally, take a photo of the item.
___________________________________
Breaking a machine down and having it professionally packed and insured is not cheap. I think many knowledgeable buyers are guilty about being cheap on shipping and hoping for the best.
*
I suppose each shipper has different requirements to qualify for payable insurance. I was at a packing & shipping business and it was suggested that any carton used must be new. I don't know if this is universally true but it is something to consider.
Jerry Blais

[gramophone78]

I would suggest:
*
#1 The buyer should send detailed suggestions to the seller detailing dismantling and packing.
*
#2 The buyer should be willing to have the item professionally packed following the buyers suggestions and the professional packers best materials and efforts. The buyer should insist on insurance.
*
#3 The buyer should insist on good detailed photos of the item prior to shipping and save the photos.
*
#4 If you receive a package that appears damaged on the outside, don't rush to open it. Take a few moments and take photos. Open the carton and take photos of the packing materials. Finally, take a photo of the item.
___________________________________
Breaking a machine down and having it professionally packed and insured is not cheap. I think many knowledgeable buyers are guilty about being cheap on shipping and hoping for the best.
*
I suppose each shipper has different requirements to qualify for payable insurance. I was at a packing & shipping business and it was suggested that any carton used must be new. I don't know if this is universally true but it is something to consider.
Jerry Blais

Great advice Jerry. The key thing to remember (unless stated by the seller) most sellers are NOT Phonograph collectors and I would never assume they know what's best. Therefore, that responsibly is really with the buyer.
I too agree that most (myself included) try to get away with the lowest cost we can to have an item shipped to ourselves.
Bottom line......it's your call.

[VintageTechnologies]

I have pretty much given up buying many kinds of delicate apparatus online, particularly from non-collectors. My heart has been broken too many times. Too many sellers could care less about an antique once the money is in their pocket; their attitude is to let the buyer and insurer sort it out.

I test the seller's attitude about packing right BEFORE I place a bid. If they don't communicate well or show a willingness to pack to my specifications, I pass on them. BTW, I always indicate I'll pay extra for the right materials to pack correctly.

[scullylathe]

The #1 thing to remember about eBay is that it is "a crazy place where crazy people pay crazy prices to primarily inept sellers for fairly mundane items". Classic example is hundreds of dollars for common Standards, Homes, Firesides, and many other COMMON phonographs, as well as horns, cranes and other ephemera that can be had at (still today) just about any auction printed in the paper or on Craigslist claiming "and other various antiques". I started collecting in the 1970's when things sold for fair prices. Up until around 1996 when eBay started up, prices remained where they should be. Enter eBay and a "national" marketplace where people who have NO idea what they're really bidding on in terms of knowledge about the item, market, etc., but are taken in by sellers who start every listing with "Rare - RARE - RARE!!!!!!!!!! (insert mundane item here)" and inept buyers who "bid early and often!!" on something if they'd just go down to their local flea market or "antique shop" they would find for a fraction of what it ends up selling for on eBay. OK, so eBay.

As far as packing and shipping go, yes, just about any online seller first, has no idea what it is they have and second, has no idea how to properly pack and ship it for safe arrival at the buyers location. And I totally agree with another poster that they much less CARE, once the cash is safely in their bank. And my experience with attempting to instruct a seller as to HOW to carefully pack an item is that they "shut down" and either 1) ship the item as they see fit or 2) (again, enter eBay) reject the purchase and issue negative feedback to "someone who is too difficult to please, deal with - whatever". (I have had that happen when nicely instructing a seller who admitted in an email they didn't know how to pack a 78 RPM record for safe shipment; sale cancelled and negative feedback because they didn't care to follow through with an appropriate closure to the sale.)

I also once had an Edison Triumph almost completely destroyed by the USPS. The person I bought the machine from KNEW how to pack appropriately, however, when the carton arrived, it had been split open and re-taped very obviously with USPS tape. I contacted the seller (this wasn't an eBay purchase) and asked if they had used postal service tape - no, only clear packing tape. So, I filed a claim, which they were very helpful with, but when the "adjuster" came to view the damage, all he could offer was to collect the damaged contents and pay a portion (NOT the entire amount) of the sale price I had paid. I first pointed out that I can't just walk down to Wal-Mart and buy another one of these. He again stated that was "all he could do". After several exchanges the encounter turned very ugly and ended up with me shouting at him with some choice words that wouldn't even appear on an "under the counter" 78 record He finally agreed to pay the damages and let me keep the contents, which I promptly got from him in writing. The machine was fixable, but the point was that the fairly major damage was THEIR fault and their policy at the time about damage to "fine art pieces and antiques" (this was around 1996) which 'prevented paying of insurance without collecting the damaged contents' was ludicrous and I simply wasn't going to stand for it because the seller obviously had been very careful in packing the machine, and the damage was clearly their fault.

I like Jerry's suggestions, but most eBay (and many other online sellers) simply don't want to put that much work into insuring that an item gets to a buyer intact. I've been met with much resistance to photos, packing instructions, etc., primarily through eBay, but from other sources as well.

Yes, sometimes even I can't resist purchasing something from an unknown vendor on eBay or from another source, but before I pay, at the first hint of unwillingness to pack and insure properly, I back out of the sale.

Just my $.02

[Raphael]

The internet has provided a great service of connecting new buyers with sellers. eBay, for all we rip it, created a marketplace whereby we can find, monitor, and learn about our field of interest and ultimately complain about "crazy prices" which in many cases are a direct result of newly kindled interest in these collectibles. When I started collecting music boxes about 20 years ago, the options were pitiful. Then I became able to buy on line and acquire pieces from all over the world, it eventually lead not only to phonographs but an on-line business of my own.
What everybody needs to keep in mind is that "bargains" obtained at a local purchase are different from one acquired at a distance. And nobody, especially myself, has the rest of the equation solved. I have been shipping for almost 15 years and learn something new almost every day. But it all starts with the seller, and when you score a deal, hold your breath, the fun has just begun. I have a 3-car garage/packing room, filled with shipping materiel (and no room for a car), and wish I had more space because every outbound shipment requires very careful thought, care and especially proper (and expensive) materials.
A tip to all: whenever possible avoid UPS or Fedex, use motor freight. Have the item boxed and palletized and shipped via a major carrier. Whenever you forgo the mechanized cargo sorting systems, conveyor belts, etc., of UPS or Fedex, and substitute pallet-jack and fork lifts, the odds of a safe shipment go up exponentially.