Continuing Pathé investigations: record wear

[pughphonos]

I find that there is not a great interest in Pathé disc machines on this forum or others. This has me wondering: is it that few phono enthusiasts have been introduced to this "odd ball" brand; OR they have and have decided to give up on it? My provisional answer is that it's a combination of the two factors.

Even so, I have not as yet exhausted my interest in Pathé as one has to credit the company for its unusual innovations. (To recap: I am the new owner of a Pathé Actuelle Sheraton Art model, which utilizes a paper cone). Still, as my investigations continue I must confess that the negatives are piling up.

The latest to manifest is that of RECORD WEAR. I've gathered around a dozen Pathé vertical discs in the past few weeks and have been playing them on my Actuelle. One record in particular has been interesting and I have played it a few dozen times--all with a NEW Pathé sapphire ball stylus. Well, it is beginning to skip and the previously all-black surface is now showing telltale signs of white wear. Googling "Pathé wear," I find on-line testimony that Pathé machines, equipped with the proper Pathé saphire styli, DO quickly wear Pathé records, regardless of the claims of the Pathé literature of the 1910s and 1920s.

I tend to cheer for the "underdog"--but I am definitely seeing why people have reservations about Pathé phonographs.

There's a fellow with the Canadian Antique Phonograph Society (Paul Dodington) who has posted a well thought-out and illustrated essay on converting (reversible) any Victor Orthophonic phonograph so that it can play Pathé vertical records. His belief is that the Orthophonic sound boxes cause much less wear to Pathé records than original Pathé equipment--in addition to the amazing increase in sound quality. I am providing the link to his essay below. I am now on the verge of following his example/instructions and making the changes so that my 1926 Victor Granada (4-4) Orthophonic can likewise play Pathé records. If I find that this conversion satisfies me, I will eventually unload my Pathé Actuelle and consider that area of interest/ownership at an end.

Going once, going twice...ANYONE out there have anything to say in defense--or criticism--of Pathé disc machines?

Ralph

http://www.capsnews.org/apn2011-3.htm

[briankeith]

Odd ball? No way my friend, they were as big as Victor and Edison in my book, expecially over in Europe. I own three Pathé machines, two disc and one very early cylinder type machine that is a very strange looking talking machine indeed, with the reproducer attached to the very light-weight polished aluminum horn and crane assembly. My Pathé table-top disc machine is the LOUDEST acoustic talking machine in my collection. It out-performs all my Victors, Edisons, Sonoras, Brunswicks, Columbias, and even many of my off-brands in my large collection of "off-brands".... I love the Pathé machines, especially the ones being sold in Europe compared to the USA versions. Getting them over here to the USA cost big bucks in shipping unfortunately. My Pathé machines never wear down any of my disc records or cylinders either???

[CarlosV]

Pathé is one of the most interesting brands for the collector, as they consistently privileged new products and shunned standardization. I own more than a dozen Pathé disc machines, they are all interesting and have their unique characteristics. Loudness is a common trait amongst them, especially the older ones, be them equipped with external or internal horns. I never noticed any wear on my discs, although I don't remember playing the same record for a dozen times. The evidence in contrary to the statement that Pathé machines cause excessive wear to discs is the existence today of a large number of Pathé vertical cut discs in good playing conditions concerning wear, particularly in Europe. My largest sample comes in a lot of about 150 discs I once bought from descendants of the owners of a bistro, where they installed a player to entertain the patrons in the early 1900s. All the discs were in very good condition, and coming from a set supposed to be played several times in a public place, I concluded that the machine could not be wearing the discs (unless the patrons did not like the repertoire and left the discs unplayed). A damaged Sapphire stylus may be the responsible for the wear, but you need a good microscope to be able to see it.

One thing I noticed is that there are new styluses being sold today that are made of glass. To me they look undistinguishable at naked eye: the same guy who sold me one Sapphyre stylus was also selling glass ones, which were cheaper but according to him don't last for long before chipping. The problem is that unless you inspect your stylus before every play, which I don't, you will only find out that it is chipped after it ruined the record. As I cannot distinguish glass from sapphyre, I tend to favor buying old stock, most bearing the Pathé name on the brass stem, which shows up for sale now and them.

[Orchorsol]

There are supposedly collectors that refute the idea, but I believe there were different stylus ball sizes.

I have two Pathé machines, and two soundboxes of different sizes and they don't perform the same. The larger soundbox sounds excellent with the huge 20" discs and the smaller soundbox sounds good with the 14" and smaller sizes - and vice versa. I haven't tried to measure or photograph the ball sizes...

Could be a reason for rapid wear!

[FloridaClay]

I have not noticed any excessive wear playing my Pathé machine and records. Like another commenter, I am wondering if the new stylus you bought might be defective. Another possibility might be maladjustment of the pivots on the stylus bar.

Clay

[pughphonos]

Good morning, all! So delighted that several Pathé owners have come out and offered their expertise and thoughts on the issue of Pathé phonographs and disc record wear. Thanks for educating me. I don't WANT to give up on Pathé for, as one of you mentioned, the company's refusal to standardize is very interesting/charming. I'm definitely going to try all I can to see what I do about that record wear.

Several of you comment about the stylus being the possible problem. Who knows? I bought mine from one of the most reputable phono parts guys out there (George Vollema) who certainly knows the difference between glass and sapphire. Perhaps I need to buy a microscope as part of my hobby--who'd a thunk it.

I noticed that some of you indicate that you have pursued Pathé FRENCH models more aggressively than the Pathé American models. My next question to you all is: was the Actuelle (paper cone) model made for the American market only? Maybe the Actuelle's wear their records more quickly. Since last night I have taken a screw driver and adjusted the needle chuck setting--and as soon as my family gets out of bed I'll resume my tests! I'm hoping that a slight change on the angle of contact (stylus to record surface) might improve tracking and reduce wear.

Thank you, Pathé folk!!! I was starting to think you weren't out there.

Ralph

[ewok]

Little bit O/T....
I bought my sapphire stylus recently from a Dutch phonograph part supplier Guido Severijns v.o.f.
Has anyone also bought sapphire stylus from this person?
It's too early from me to tell the qualities of the stylus but so far I haven't seen anything wrong with it.

[FloridaClay]

Ralph, I got my stylus from George as well and have complete trust in him. Of course even though it is the real thing there is always the possibility of a manufacturing defect in a particular example.

Clay

[larryh]

I have owned a Pathé console model at one point.. For some reason I never could make that machine track the records and gave up on it. But that was a long time back an I may have not totally understood the workings of it. Since I enjoy hearing samples of all makes I do have a number of Pathé records which I have from time to time played on my Brunswick. I find the sound of the internal horn Brunswick better than the smaller and somewhat odd Pathé horns.. However the limited records which seem to go for rather high prices and the quickness which they tend to be over has kept me from going much farther in purchasing them. I have had quite a number which no matter what you do slide across the records either from the start or somewhere during play. A rather irritating problem.. What I will say is the next to Edison the sound of Pathé is probably among the best of the acoustic recordings. Especially the European Black Labels.. Often I find the american versions lacking in the same excitement of sound..

Generally however I have be come a huge fan of the Edison machines which with a good stylus, record and diaphragm are simply amazing.. Granted Pathé too has very fine sound on some records but the selections end way before the Edison versions which to me diminishes the advantage of collecting them.
Larry

[Uncle Vanya]

The Actuelle is well known for wearing records badly when it is improperly adjusted. The stylus bar pivots are held in place with brass spiral springs, which crack and collapse with time. The machine can be made to play acceptably well by tightening the stylus bar adjusting screws, but the reproducer then is sorely lacking in compliance, and will wear records badly.

The springs salvaged from retractable ball-point pens may be shortened to make acceptable replacements.