Continuing Pathé investigations: record wear

[VintageTechnologies]

@pughphonos: I have four Pathé disk machines (European and American) although not an Actuelle, and at the very least 500 disks (evenly divided between European and American, and ranging from 8" to 14"). I started collecting those about 35 years ago, so I feel qualified to make a few personal observations.

Apart from the Actuelle which I can't comment on, I would consider such rapid wear using a conventional Pathé reproducer to be a gross abnormality; something is clearly wrong. If you use a sapphire stylus so long in one position that it develops a substantial flat spot, tiny pieces of sapphire may flake off around the perimeter of that flat spot and the sharp edges will cut into the record immediately. That happened to me and I figured it out by studying the stylus under a stereo microscope at 50 power. I study Edison DD stylii at 100 power.

While a regular microscope could be used, a stereo model is vastly superior for such studies. If you collect any machine using sapphire or diamond needles, I highly recommend using a stereo microscope. Although there are a bewildering number of new and used stereo microscopes, on eBay, I personally like those made by American Optical in the 40's and 50's. They can often be bought for $75 - $125. Example: eBay # 300818112777

I suggest that if you rotate the stylus for every 50 sides played, a stylus could last for a much longer time than if you allow a flat spot to develop. I also recommend that any reproducer be overhauled with new gaskets to improve tracking compliance and reduce record wear. I like the early European Pathé reproducers made from some kind of light-weight thermoplastic instead of metal; I also like that they are coupled to the tonearm by a flexible rubber hose which I think improves compliance. From my experience low-mass reproducers like that track Pathés better than massive reproducers such as the Brunswick Ultona.

The European and American Pathé disks seem to be made of different compositions. The European disks seem to be softer, have less surface noise, skip more, go grey in the center and develop hung grooves faster than the American disks. Quality of recordings varies considerably. The quality can be startling and the Pathé repertoire is certainly different from Edison's.

[pughphonos]

Hello again, all. I took a level to my Actuelle this morning and leveled it off as much as possible; since then I've not had any episodes of the stylus skating across record surfaces since.

I've already made it a practice of rotating the stylus every few plays, even if it's the Edison DD shank or the Pathé sapphire one.

I'll keep an eye on the record wear. It might not be as great as I was assuming yesterday; perhaps the machine became more off-balance at that point; as for the visual evidence of wear, I must try to measure that more systematically.

I do agree that the Pathé records have a very interesting sound. Sure, much of the content isn't anything special, but then one does come across those occasional records that encourage us to continue collecting different formats. I have a Rek-o-Cut modern turntable with the vertical/lateral switch, but of course there is nothing like being able to play the old records as they were intended--on their machines.

As for Edison machines and records: that's actually my MAIN obsession! My DD count is up to 538;I own a Sheraton S-19 DD player with a double spring motor and an Edisonic reproducer, along with a Triumph model D cylinder player. In fact I was getting a bit too Edison crazy and was glad for the Pathé diversion.

I've decided NOT to give up on the Pathé and will see about gasket repair--though I'd imagine there's not a great deal of experience out there repairing the Actuelle paper cone machines.

It's been great gaining so much expert advice over the past 24 hours. Moral of story: save one's questions for holidays.

[briankeith]

My Pathé Salon cylinder phonograph with the very light aluminum horn. The reproducer is attached directly to the horn with a red gum-rubber hose and small woven cloth band. The Salon tube slides off to play regular size 2-minute cylinders. Pretty loud but "tinny" sounding machine. Note the little "Rooster" engraved on the machine.

[epigramophone]

Ralph, I do not know where you are located but I bought a replacement ball sapphire stylus from Mike Child, who trades as Soundgen on UK eBay. This is made to the original specification and has given every satisfaction. I have never had any problems with excessive record wear.

My Pathéphone is a "Reflex" (bowl in lid) table model of about 1911, which resembles the popular "Elf" but is larger. It is certainly LOUD.

I also have a Pathé reproducer and adapter to fit a conventional tonearm, but this requires a weight adjuster to overcome the problem of skating. The smaller diameter centre start records are particularly prone to this problem.

Having said that, the centre start records have a charm all their own, and never fail to astonish people who have never seen one played before. They are always waiting for the reproducer to fall off the edge at the end!

[Valecnik]

Pughphones,

I wouldn't agree with your comment that there's no interest in Pathé on this forum. Here's one example of an older thread on the topic.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... Pathéphone

and here a Pathéphone no. 12 among others. I'm sure there's more.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... 2&start=20

[pughphonos]

Hi all. Very interesting to learn about all the types of surviving Pathé phonographs that are out there (disk and cylinder) and that they are in the hands of the avid collectors who have chimed in over the past few days.

Yes, I agree with the post immediately above: there ARE Pathé enthusiasts aplenty. I had been frustrated in some other posts that not many seemed to be interested. This still might be the case with the short-lived Pathé Actuelle (paper cone) phonograph, but we'll take that one step at a time. I continue to struggle with the skipping/skating problems, which appears to be an inescapable problem with the shallow Pathé grooves.

Do an of you have experience with having "re-papered" a paper cone? I've heard that there is a fellow out there who provides this service and does a marvelous job. I just wonder if the sound quality difference is striking enough to merit the change in most cases (i.e., does paper really get "old" and unresponsive; and do the various tears that accumulate over the years cut down on resonance?

Ralph

[FloridaClay]

As far as the skating of the tone arm when playing Pathé records goes, the problem went away for me when I carefully leveled my Pathé phonograph. Try putting a level on the turntable and making sure that it is level in all directions.

Clay

[estott]

As far as the skating of the tone arm when playing Pathé records goes, the problem went away for me when I carefully leveled my Pathé phonograph. Try putting a level on the turntable and making sure that it is level in all directions.

Clay

Being level is important, but Pathé grooves are so shallow that a slight warp in the record- or vibrations from someone walking- will often cause the stylus to skate. Fortunately this doesn't seem to damage the grooves much.

[alang]

I also have a Pathé, a Pathéphone No.29 from around 1914. I sure have seen some of the skating when not perfectly level, but I never noticed record wear. I am a bit confused though by the discussion about the Pathé Actuelle. I thought that Pathé changed to "needle cut" lateral discs with the Actuelle series, so shouldn't it play regular 78s with steel needles? Or can the paper cone Actuelle switch between lateral and vertical?

In any case, the "replace reproducer gaskets" remarks were probably meant for regular Pathés, not for the paper cone Actuelle I think.

I would not replace an original paper cone in relatively good condition...

Thanks
Andreas

[pughphonos]

Hi Andreas. Yes, indeed, the Pathé Actuelle with the paper cone CAN switch between vertical and lateral orientations. One just simply rotates the paper cone a quarter turn and then rotate the needle chuck the in the same direction. The metal edge of the paper cone bracket is marked "lateral" at one spot and "Pathé" (for the vertical orientation) at the other.

This versatility is the main reason why I've invested so much effort in my Pathé Actuelle. Sure, the sound produced by the paper cone doesn't measure up to what a Victor Orthophonic phonograph can do--or even what an Edison Diamond Disc machine can do with an Edisonic reproducer. But the ability to rotate the cone and change orientations is just so--charming! Plus, as of now it's the only machine I have that will play the Pathé laterals acoustically.

Ralph