Help with a new Edison triumph?

[brianu]

I recently found a triumph B with the 2/4 minute mechanism installed. It seemed just to need some basic cleanup and a new belt, the old one was really crumbled and loose. So I cleaned it over the past couple of days, had the motor running perfectly before installing the new belt. But once I attached that belt and connected it with the top works - which otherwise seemed to be moving freely - the whole thing gradually slowed to a stop, even when near fully wound. If I remove the belt, the motor starts running perfectly again.

Any ideas as to what might be wrong? I'll snap some photos and post them later today if I can.

[Jerry B.]

So it slows down even before you lower the reproducer to play a cylinder? Jerry

[brianu]

Hi Jerry,

Yes, the motor seems to run perfectly until I attach the belt to the top works,then it begins running a good deal more slowly. If I then engage the feedscrew/carriage drive (sorry, unfamiliar with specific terms), it slows a bit more and then stops. I can't figure it out.

[Jerry B.]

About three pages back there's a thread named "Edison Home B" started by debndunk. All the advice given for the Home applies to the Triumph. You might review the replies. Good luck and let us know. Jerry Blais

[Phonofreak]

The belt may be too tight.
Harvey Kravitz

[outune]

Belt too tight, OR the belt tensioner may be binding a bit-- clean it well and oil it-- If it has an endgate, check the bearing on the end-- might be too tight or too loose.

Brad

[phonojim]

Belt tension can be critical on these motors. Not sure, but doesn't the model B have the knurled screw type belt tensioner rather than the idler type? Frow is not specific about this, but he does say that the knurled nut type adjustment was introduced on the model A in 1904 along with spring suspension of the motor. If yours has this type of adjuster, turn the nut to the right which will raise the motor casting and loosen the belt. I have a Model D and have spent countless hours, including a complete overhaul, trying to get it to run right. Every adjustment both above and below the bedplate seems to be critical. I leave my belt as loose as I can without having it slip while playing.

Jim

[FellowCollector]

Hi Brian,

It sounds like you have been fortunate to find a Triumph that has not been messed with (ie. pretty much unrestored) since you mention an original belt was on it. As one of the many responders to the Edison Home B thread several weeks ago I can agree with those that have responded here regarding the tension on the new belt you have installed. The tension must be correct for the top works to engage with the motor and operate smoothly. And the (lower) motor drive pulley should be in near perfect alignment with the (upper) mandrel pulley. You can assess their alignment by looking down from the top (over the mandrel pulley).

But, before we address the belt tension there is one simple test you should perform on any of the Edison cylinder phonographs that may help enormously - especially one that may have been unused for a long time.

Years ago I found a "virgin" Edison Standard with original belt and everything else completely unmolested on it. Basically an attic find that had been unused for many decades. It was in otherwise very fine condition. I lubed the motor with light oil on the bearings and so forth and installed a new belt that was of the correct tension. And, when I tried to play a cylinder it did just what your Triumph is doing.

The motor was good and strong, belt tension right, pulleys in alignmnt, tension on mandrel bearings correct, all the gears in top works looked great. What the heck? So, here is how I figured out what was wrong.

With the belt removed, I tried to spin the mandrel to test the operating of the upper works - only the upper works. Now, keep in mind that you should be able to spin the mandrel (resting the palm of your hand straight out lightly on the mandrel and giving a quick spin) and the upper works should spin very freely and quietly for a reasonable amount of time without the belt installed. In your case set the upper works for 2 minute play and the works SHOULD be very freely moving.

In my case, the upper works did NOT run freely (even with oil applied on all moving parts) and there was some slight resistance telling me that something in the top works was binding a bit. After a thorough investigation it turned out that the feedscrew bearings were WAY too tight. I cleaned and reset the tension on the feedscrew and the top works now spun beautifully. Nice and quiet and very freely.

I reinstalled the belt and it played perfectly! So, check the upper works for no resistance (without the belt installed) and check the belt tension and you should have it. The Triumph has a big beefy motor that should run the upper works through play of many cylinders. Good luck, Doug

[Andersun]

Brian,
A couple of comments if your problem persists....

Your motors belt tension is very easy to adjust via the front motor mount which as stated before has a knurled screw to turn. Turning CCW (looking down at it) lowers the front of the motor and tensions the belt while turning the screw CW raises the motor up and loosens belt tension.

If you took the motor completely out and reinstalled, make sure your rear motor mounts are not to tight or to loose. The mounts should have vibration dampeners on them in the form of springs. The mounts should be tight enough to just slightly compress the springs.

Also, make sure that the upper and lower pulleys between the belt are lined up vertically. Sometimes if the alignment is way off, the belt will rub against the upper bed plate.

Keep working at it and you will find out the problem and at the same time become an expert on adjusting these machines!

Steve

[edisonphonoworks]

The main thing with all cylinder talking machines. All berrings must not be too tight, or too loose,there should be play between all adjustment points about the thickness of a piece of paper. The belt must not slip, or be so tight as to slow the machine, as others said, ajusting the knureld screw on the front of the motor lowers and raises to adjust belt tension. As a general, rule, I adjust this screw up until the belt starts slipping, then lower it ¼ turn. You should be able to play records on a well adjusted machine, until there is almost no tension on a spring. I sometimes will take days adjusting machines until they meet my strict requirements. The machine must play from a fully wound, to a fully slack spring, it must not warble. Make sure all your rubber is intact in the top works, sometimes these are so far gone, that the top casting is wobbly, use rubber pads on the four corners, and have the topworks plate centered in the middle of the ears where the topwoks bolt to the base plate is centered up, then make sure your top pully is centerd with your bottom pully. If you have a pot metal pully on the bottom of the motor, it can wable from side to side and hit the casting and stop the motor too.