I'm thinking about getting a Orthophonic and I need help

[Uncle Vanya]

[ The first series sets (RE-45, RE-75) can be greatly improved by the substitution of one of the 1931 model "Inertia" (Cobra) tone arms for the straight arm. the "cobra" arm improves needle point compliance, lessening record wear while improving reproduction.

Is this an acceptable practice in USA in the eyes of collectors?
I know if I had anything from an electric HMV 600 to a humble 101 and changed the tonearm, it would instantly devalue the machine & a lot of collectors wouldn't touch it.
Putting the tonearm & 5b soundbox from a 102 onto a 101 would improve sound quality too, but I doubt I could ever resell it for full 101 price, even though the it now had a better & more expensive reproducer.
A really nice off-brand machine, like a Brunswick, with the wrong arm would drop by up to 75% of it normal value because it's no longer original, so what makes the RE-45 & 75 any different?

You bring up a good point, Shane.

I do forget that not everyone is intimately familiar with these machines. I'd never suggest that any change be made which added a screw hole or was otherwise irreversible

Now, since these machines were never commercially shipped to the Antipodes, it would not be reasonable to expect that you knew that these arms are exactly interchangeable, and of course use the same pickup. In addition you should not be expected to know that RCA Victor offered the inertia arm as an upgrade when these machines were but a year old, and quite a number of these machines were so fitted by the dealer or jobber before they were sold.

The 102 tone arm does not exactly fit the 101, there are differences in the screw pattern. Any permanent change would of course devalue the machine. In addition, there is not space in the 101 cabinet where one might conveniently store the original tone arm. We must also remember that the 102 tone arm does not exactly fit the horn of the 101.

A more reasonable substitution would be a 5B or a Meltrope reproducer fitted to the original 101 tone arm. I don't believe that this would devalue the combination particularly, would it? What about the substitution of a Concert No. 10 for an Exhibition on a VTLA, or the installation (by the dealer, before sale) of an electrodynamic speaker in place of the magnetic unit in an Electrola Hyperion, or the installation (again by the dealer before sale) of a Pacent Phonovox on a Victrola 7-11?

[gregbogantz]

I think there has been a little much to-do about the "inferiority" of the original straight tonearm on the Victor RE-45 and RE-75. True, the original arm is not as stiff torsionally and it has less mass at the pickup end as the later inertia arm. These shortcomings tend to reduce the bass of the straight arm due to the increased mechanical resonance frequency and amplitude of the tonearm/pickup combination. But I am using the original straight arm on my RE-75, and with the pickup properly rebuilt with good compliance in the rubber needle bar suspension bits, the sound from the system is quite fine. Bass is very good (it's really that great loudspeaker that's mostly responsible for the good sound) - I can't imagine that it would be much better with the inertia arm even though it might measure a bit different with instrumentation. So I would say not to worry about doing a substitution. Rebuild the pickup properly and you'll be rewarded with great sound with the original tonearm. At a later date you might want to acquire an inertia arm and try it out to see if you hear any difference. My guess is that you'll be satisfied with keeping the Victor in its original condition.

[Uncle Vanya]

An ideal first machine had been offered for sale in our Yankee Trader section:

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=9&t=7235

The Columbia machines of this period (1926-7) arenvery well-built indeed, with no pot-metal. The 711 ia a really sepweet sounding machine, and the seller, Matt Brown is a stand-up guy. If the machine is within your reach, you might well consider it.

[Edisone]

Viva-Tonal machines are pretty hard on records. My 610 (a 611 without the fancy inlays) cost $125 and I thought it a great bargain until I saw (and heard) the wear on my Tater Head Whitemans & everything else I tried to play. Careful adjustments to the soundbox & even a counterweight didn't help at all. They do make a nice display, anyway.

If you want an Orthophonic, get a Credenza. I paid $25 for one, $175 for another, and $100 for a Granada - and would not trade them for anything (well, maybe for an Edison Opera / Concert!)

[Uncle Vanya]

The Viva-tonal machies can be a bit hard on records, Wen the reproducers have ot been properly rebuilt.

That red rubber back MUST be replaced with a new unit of proper softness, otherwise the effective needle point compliance is entirely inadequate. The diaphragm gaskets, too, must be replaced, and the common Exhibition rubber gasket material is a bit too large in diameter . Should one use it one must make an additional spacer to allow a bit more room for the too-thick rubber. I simply buy a smaller diameter material form a scientific supply house.

I'm not personally familiar with Mr. Brown's 711, but I wuld expect that the machine has had all necessary work done, and that done well.

[Uncle Vanya]

The Viva-tonal machies can be a bit hard on records, When the reproducers have ot been properly rebuilt.

That red rubber back MUST be replaced with a new unit of proper softness, otherwise the effective needle point compliance is entirely inadequate. The diaphragm gaskets, too, must be replaced, and the common Exhibition rubber gasket material is a bit too large in diameter . Should one use it one must make an additional spacer to allow a bit more room for the too-thick rubber. I simply buy a smaller diameter material from a scientific supply house.

I'm not personally familiar with Mr. Brown's 711, but I wuld expect that the machine has had all necessary work done, and that done well.

Of course a Credenza, an 8-35, or an 8-9 are really fine machines. They are, however, not always easily available in every part of th country, and we must remember that there are other excellent machines out there.

[Uncle Vanya]

The Viva-tonal machies can be a bit hard on records, When the reproducers have ot been properly rebuilt.

That red rubber back MUST be replaced with a new unit of proper softness, otherwise the effective needle point compliance is entirely inadequate. The diaphragm gaskets, too, must be replaced, and the common Exhibition rubber gasket material is a bit too large in diameter . Should one use it one must make an additional spacer to allow a bit more room for the too-thick rubber. I simply buy a smaller diameter material from a scientific supply house.

I'm not personally familiar with Mr. Brown's 711, but I wuld expect that the machine has had all necessary work done, and that done well.

Of course a Credenza, an 8-35, or an 8-9 are really fine machines. They are, however, not always easily available in every part of th country, and we must remember that there are other excellent machines out there.

[chem_jv]

I own an 8-4, 8-12, and 8-35. I have to say I prefer the 8-12 and 8-35 over my 8-4 but they are all still very nice machines. The 8-4 tends to be very boxy, whereas the 8-12 has much more style and class. The vertical folding of the wood orthophonic horn can make certain records sound shallow, but it is an overall great performer.

I would take my 8-35 anyday over a credenza. Not that the credenza isn’t impressive, it just falls into that same category as the 8-4 for me. I do know my 8-35 is very loud, and I find the metal horn makes everything sound bright and lively. The wood horns have a much more subdued and mellow sound, to my ears. The other thing I really like about my 8-35, it has the electric motor option. I must say I am spoiled by not having to crank it every time I get the urge to play a record. Lastly, the 8-35 still manages to look very modern in a living room, even today. The lady I purchased mine from had never even used it in all the years it was in her family. It was always furniture on which the TV rested.

Electric machines are another story all together. I love them, the way technology was changing in the late 1920’s and 30’s makes them so interesting. The falling cost of components, better recording technology, new advances in science, etc. You had better enjoy (or know someone who does), understand, and be willing to work on electronics to have them. I have friends who own Victors 7-26 and RE-75. I happen to be in love with the 7-26. I just like the styling of it; true it’s only a Radiola 18, and lacks the power of the RE-45 and RE-75. I have heard both the permanent magnet (RCA-100a) and electrodynamic (RCA-106) versions, and well it almost goes without saying how much better the electrodynamic speaker is.

For me, and electric, I really prefer Brunswick’s Panatropes over victor’s machines. Maybe this is because that is what I happen to own, but I know everyone who has heard my Brunswick S-31 has been very impressed. It was a labor of love, taking me almost a full year, working when I found time from other projects to get it done. Modern components, resisters, capacitors, etc. allowed me to tighten up the tolerances as I put the machine back to factory spec. coupled with the large electrodynamic speaker and a pair of 45’s in push-pull it packs a punch.

I happen to have friends who also have Panatropes, P-11 and PR-148 side by side with the aforementioned Victor machines and I would take the panatrope. I just like the sound and I find the cabinets to be much better looking.

In regards to changing the tone arm, I think as long as the original equipment is saved and kept with the machine, that way it can be put back, no harm has been done. It’s under your care to enjoy it and well, no one can really stop you. Just my two cents.

If you ever happen to come across an 8-60 feel free to send it my way. That is a credenza machine that I would love to have in the collection….

[whoopinola]

I've had a whack of Othophonics in my fleet over the years..never met one that I didn't like....In my mind the most important aspect is the reproducer condition. They aren't an easy rebuild...The Orthophonics all have the potential to sound great..I have a Credenza , a 4-40 , and an 8-12 , with the 8-12 getting the most playing...If your world is similar to the rest of us , then space is an issue..that , and budget..if you have lots of both , then search for that Credenza..if not , then a Consolette will be fine...just wait for the one with the best reproducer ..you won't be happy with a buzzer no matter how big and grand the cabinet is

[Wolfe]

The Viva-tonal machies can be a bit hard on records, When the reproducers have ot been properly rebuilt.

Maybe so. I've been a bit suspicious of them anyway. The Viva-Tonal soundboxes seem to weigh a lot when you handle them.

Columbia was never very good about designing things to minimize record wear, it seems. The pre-Viva Tonal no offset arms that had huge tracking error, etc.