Edison Triumph Model A w/ 2/4 Min Conversion? Help?

[brianu]

I recently picked up this triumph A, which appears to have been modified early on with a horizontal carriage to accommodate a better reproducer (an O or diamond B) and a cygnet horn. it also seems to have been equipped with 2/4 minute gearing, but I can't seem to figure it out - there's no lever or rod to switch between the two different settings, and where that change would occur, at the far left end of the feedscrew, the gears there don't seem to move in and out the way those on my other 2/4 minute machines do - maybe they're stuck? can anyone offer any help or suggestions about this?

[Andersun]

Brianu,

The pulley might be on too far on the mandrel shaft not allowing the 2/4 minute option to slide right to left. Remove belt and check to see that pully is in the right position. (should be set screw under the belt in pulley).

You will eventually want to find a Triumph 2/4 minute lever to complete the setup but it's not required to make it work.
Steve

[penman]

Brianu:

According to the Frow book, because of the feedscrew length, Model A and C Triumph kits were not equipped with the change lever, since there was not enough room for one, and they were not supplied with the conversion kits. Really only the Model B should have the change lever on the conversion. You may have a longer B feedscrew on the machine.

[Andersun]

Brianu:

According to the Frow book, because of the feedscrew length, Model A and C Triumph kits were not equipped with the change lever, since there was not enough room for one, and they were not supplied with the conversion kits. Really only the Model B should have the change lever on the conversion. You may have a longer B feedscrew on the machine.

The Model A and B have the same upper bed plate casting clearances so the 2/4 minute attachment including the lever should fit on the A, B and Spring Motor. The pics below shows a 2/4 minute mandrel along with the lever on a Triumph Model A like yours. You can see that there is room for the lever to slide the cam back and forth. I have a lever that was taken off a Spring Motor.

If the belt pulley is too far on the mandrel shaft, you will not be able to slide the cam back and forth.

Please send a close-up of where the lever engages the cam like the picture below ........

Thanks,
Steve

[brianu]

thanks for the replies. I'll snap another photo tonight of the area by the pulley. I figured this one might be missing something, as my other 2/4 minute triumph A has the same set-up with the lever as the one in the photo posted above... this one just doesn't seem to have any way to switch between 2 and 4 minute gearing/playing... and the gearing seems stuck in place anyway, I think in 2-minute.

[edisonphonoworks]

It probably has oil inside the gearing that needs to be cleaned out, and it needs to be adjusted. The main thing to remember when taking it apart, is to not loose the little cylinder or ball bearing under the curved steel spring that snaps in the 2 rings to keep the de-tent of 2 and 4 minute positions. There is also a little spur gear in there. This all gets gummy over the years and then does not work, take the feed screw off the mandrel drive shaft and clean all these parts thoroughly with solvent, and polish them. there can be no friction in these parts. I am sure if you clean the gearing it will work.

[brianu]

here's another close-up photo.

I tried some degreaser, but can't seem to get the gearing loose, to switch between 2 and 4 minute. I haven't yet disassembled the whole mandrel set-up. I just wanted to be sure that I'm going about this properly, and that everything here is correct for the machine (and that someone in the past didn't add a wrong part that's throwing things off or out of alignment).

[Andersun]

Brianu,

Are you able to remove the belt pulley from the mandrel shaft? If not, you won't be able to move anything else.

Here are some instructions if you feel you are up to the task:

1. Remove carriage with reproducer.
2. Remove belt
3. Open end gate
4. Apply penetrating catalyst to belt pulley especially where it comes in contact with mandrel shaft and let soak for hours or even over night.
5. Loosen set screw that secures belt pulley to the mandrel shaft and set screw that holds the curved metal spring in place. (as someone mentioned before, make sure you find the little steel ball that resides under the curved metal spring (it may be gone).
6. Loosen and remove center bushing set screws (plural) which are immediately to left of mandrel. Make sure not to loose the little "L" shaped worm gear positioner or the tiny screw that holds it on.
7. Grab mandrel in one hand and pulley in the other and slowly twist the pulley mandrel while pulling the whole mandrel assembly apart. Mandrel and shaft should slide out to the right leaving the worm gear and other various parts resting on your upper bed-plate.
8. Hopefully you will be successful and then clean all of the parts.

Report back before you put it all back together.