Good vibrations--as in FEW vibrations

[pughphonos]

Hi All,

Decided to start a new thread on this as index searching didn't bring up much--but knowing you folks, I'm sure there's all sorts of insights out there.

What I'm curious about is this. I own an Edison Triumph model D cylinder phonograph, over which I fuss endlessly in my quest for the best sound. I'm getting there. Last night I was able to eliminate most of the last of the vibrations that had somehow been making their way up from the motor and onto the mandrel, where (when cylinders were played) the music would often have an annoying "raspy" quality. What had happened is that the spring screw at the front of the underside of the bedplate was set wrong and the speed control knob PLUS the on/off switch were digging into the outer side of the bedplate--thereby transmitting vibrations from the motor to the bedplate.

No end of learning about these darned machines, is there?

Well, now that I've learned how important it is to keep the bedplate as insulated from the motor's vibrations as possible, I want to ask you all if there are any other tricks out there in pursuit of that goal.

I have a few guesses, and I'll throw them out there--but they could be clunkers:
1) Set the phonograph on a thick rubber mat
2) Place a thin rubber strip between the lid (that holds the bedplate) and the body of the cabinet

Ok, almost certainly clunker ideas. So, folks, give me GOOD ones! For example, is there any way to IMPROVE on the shock-absorbing capacity of the spring screws, front and back? Replace them, or supplement them, with rubber grommets?

Thanks!

Ralph

[Chuck]

From what I understand about Edison cylinder
phonographs, I personally think that the
spring-suspension mounting of the lower
works is plenty good enough.

The lower works should not be vibrating very
much at all in the first place.

If it is vibrating excessively, the first thing
I would be investigating as the cause would be
the governor. If it is out of balance, that
will induce and undue amount of vibration.

An out of balance governor will cause the
surface speed of the cylinder to be erratic,
and it will therefore cause the warble that we
are all so familiar with, in addition to
causing vibrations of the bedplate.

Not having ever worked on a Triumph machine
I can't be any more specific than that.
But I think the general workings are the
same no matter what machine it is.

I would say offhand that by getting the
whole lower works to run smoothly by paying
special attention to the governor and really
getting it right, that will most likely
improve things.

Chuck

[pughphonos]

Hi Chuck, your statement sounds authoritative to me. So the last thing I will make sure of is that the governor is running smoothly--and then I think I'm going to be DONE with that machine. Gosh, can it be?

Thanks!

[phonogfp]

Some time ago I had a Triumph that would run fine for days - then for no apparent reason the pitch would start to fluctuate. Not a flutter, but slowing and accelerating much like a gummy mainspring will cause. You never knew if it would play well or not. Eventually I removed, cleaned, and regreased all 3 mainsprings. You can imagine my annoyance when the problem continued. Finally, although the governor appeared to be fine, I disassembled it just to be sure. You probably all know that the governor springs have a round hole on one end and an oblong hole on the other. Well, one of these governor springs/weights had been installed backwards - - that is with the spring's ends reversed. I simply spun the weight & spring 180 degrees, reinstalled it, and the machine has played flawlessly ever since. Something to check - - maybe before pulling out those 3 mainsprings!

George P.

[Chuck]

For me the governor work all started back in about 1969, when, one day out of the blue,
my Edison standard D combination machine broke
a governor spring.

Not having a new spring on hand, nor knowing where to get one, my dad and I made a new spring
out of a strip of thin steel cut out of an
erasing shield that draftsmen use.

Although that worked, it was a bit thicker than
the other 2 original springs, so that machine
had a mild flutter.

Several years later I found another whole
complete governor and swapped that in, shaft
and all. It was not a big improvement though
because that governor was out of balance.

Then after that, one time I took that 2nd governor back out of there, and disassembled it
and then disassembled the first one and had
all the parts from both of them laying out
on the table.

Got to looking closely at the round thin brass
plate that slides on the shaft and bears up
against the felt pads on the fork.

One of those plates was very slightly warped.

Also, one of these governors has a small diameter wire about an inch long that serves
as a sort of buffer element. (much as described
in the recent Opera spring replacement story)

Anyway, after closely examining all the parts
on hand, I reassembled what I thought were the
best of all of them back into a complete governor.

That works much better and got out most of the
flutter. Then, I spent a lot of time balancing
it. The way I did it then was that as it would
be spinning at full speed, I took a red colored
pencil and very slowly advanced the pencil
point toward the spinning weights until the
highest one struck the pencil tip.

Then, stop the machine and see which weight has the red mark. Take that one off and very gently bend the spring so that the weight
sits closer to the center line. Reassemble
and repeat.

After a while of doing this I got it down to
the point where the pencil would mark all
3 weights, not just one or two.

It's still not 100% perfect and probably never
will be. But it's better than most machines
I have tested.

So yeah, if it's vibrating, check the governor
because that is where lots of problems
originate.

Chuck

[VintageTechnologies]

Got to looking closely at the round thin brass
plate that slides on the shaft and bears up
against the felt pads on the fork.

One of those plates was very slightly warped.

Also, one of these governors has a small diameter wire about an inch long that serves
as a sort of buffer element. (much as described
in the recent Opera spring replacement story)
Chuck

I have noticed several governors where the plate was either warped or simply didn't run true and fluttered back and forth. How did they get like that?

I have seen that buffer wire you mention attached to some Edison governors.

I'l tell you something else unusual about the Opera governor -- in addition to the usual flat springs that carry the weights, there were shims made of the same spring stock that laid on top of the flat springs, but only for half the length. One end of the shims were fastened by the same screws that fastened the flat springs; the other end of the shim was tucked under the weight, between the flat spring and the weight. They must have served as a stiffener to cure an instability problem.

In my experiences, governors have proven to be the most vexing problem of all. Most of them run just fine, but a few are posessed by gremlins.

[pughphonos]

Thank you for these detailed narratives and plans of action. I will try that red pen experiment on my governor tonight and see whether one, two, or three of the weights come away marked. As a relative newbie to this level of care/management of an antique phonograph, I'm glad to see that so many others besides myself have refused to be CONTENT with a machine that you just know is producing some pitch "grainy-ness."

I also own an Edison Diamond Disc player (S-19) in good repair. Its records were recorded in much the same conditions as the direct-recorded Blue Amberols; from testimony on this site, the grooves are pretty much the same width. But I never hear that same sort of "grainy-ness" on a Diamond Disc--and therefore I refuse to accept that "grainy-ness" is just part of the cylinder experience. Sure, there's the very-frequent wobble you get with most plastic cylinders as they age--and I can see and accept that. But "grainy-ness?" Nope nope nope.

[larryh]

Timely subject. The J-19 I have been working with the past week has a nasty loud noise when running, again the governor is most suspect. I found this old thread here though google and it describes how to balance the governor weights and how to check other things that may be causing the problem. They mention the pencil idea but I was afraid I would break or damage the governor by trying to hit it while running.. The manual though does suggest to loosen the screws on the slotted end first an let the governor run and see if it resets it self into balance. If not then try all four screws with loosing by turning the screws just a bit. My problem not being very mechanical is even getting those tiny screws to simply start to turn without damaging them or other things. More suggestions from Edison in this information.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... ?f=2&t=476

Larry

[VintageTechnologies]

My problem not being very mechanical is even getting those tiny screws to simply start to turn without damaging them or other things.
Larry

The proper tools make all the difference. Do not use household tapered screwdrivers. Buy hollow-ground screwdrivers of various tip widths and thicknesses, so that you can match the screwdriver to the screw slot. I see too many buggered screws that were caused by tapered screwdrivers.

Soak frozen parts with penetrating oil and give it time to work. Sometimes you can loose things by heating.

[larryh]

Thanks for that tip.. I actually didn't even know there were different types of tips as far as tapered or flat. Hopefully the local hardware or farm supply has a set of this type..

Larry