Brass Mandrel Variations

[SonnyPhono]

I bought a Model A Home recently, (same machine discussed here: http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... ss+mandrel) and after talking with another member on the forum today, have some questions about the brass mandrel. While discussing it, he mentioned that brass mandrels weren't ever produced with flat ends as found on the later nickel plated variation. It was his understanding that all brass mandrels on early Edison phonographs have to have the recessed ends to be correct.

Mine does not have recessed ends, however. So now I am wondering if my mandrel was originally nickel plated or if there was possibly a variation of brass mandrel released without recesses. I know that the early brass mandrels on Class M and E phonographs were solid brass and that the design was changed to a thick-walled, hollow brass design sometime during the introduction of the Spring Motor. Then the design changed once again having thinner walls and nickel plating. But does anyone know if there was a variation that didn't have a recessed end? If not, could it be possible that during the change to nickel plated mandrels in late 1898, some may have been released having the new, non-recessed design, but lacking the nickel plating?

My Home is serial #4389 and was from an estate sale held by the original owners family. It appears to be original throughout showing no signs of being "tinkered" with. It came with an Automatic reproducer that I believe was issued with the machine as it has an appropriate serial # for the time period when this machine left the factory. Also, the upper pulley is cast which I assumed was an early characteristic. (May be wrong on that.) All these things point to the probability of the mandrel being correct. However, I can't find any definitive information on the subject and would like to verify it's originality to the machine.

As always, any help is appreciated!

[phonogfp]

Your mandrel is original and correct for a Home of that serial range. Brass mandrels were supplied both ways: with a recessed end, and not recessed.

As for solid brass mandrels on Class E/M machines, I just checked a North American example, and another Class M upper works mounted on an 1896-97 Chicago Aluminum Motor, and neither are solid brass. Where did this information on solid brass mandrels originate?

George P.

[TinfoilPhono]

In 52 years of collecting I have never heard of a solid brass mandrel. ?????

[Phonofreak]

I have a question on these brass mandrels. How can you tell if you are getting a legitimate brass mandrel and not one with the plating removed? Are there any signs to let you know? I'd hate to be stuck with one that had it's plating stripped.
Harvey Kravitz

[phonogfp]

A legitimate brass mandrel will have no holes in the end plate at the larger end. That larger brass end plate will also fit flush with the mandrel surface (making it appear to be solid) and the edges will be well defined - - not rounded at all.

Later nickeled mandrels have 2 holes in the larger end plate, and the larger end plate will be very slightly recessed, while the mandrel's nickeled surface will be slightly rounded where it meets the end plate.

George P.

[Phonofreak]

Thanks George, now I know what to look out for.
Harvey Kravitz

[phonogfp]

You're welcome, Harvey. I'm looking for a brass mandrel for a Spring Motor myself!

George P.

[SonnyPhono]

Thanks for the information, George. It's much appreciated as always and I was happy to read that my mandrel is correct. Phew!

As for the solid brass mandrel, I found this information on the Phono-L message board. Someone else was asking the same question regarding mandrel variations a few years ago and the following was written in a response:

"The solid brass mandrels were on the early M and E electric machines. They
were press fit onto the steel mandrel shaft. Even in those days solid brass
of that diameter was expensive so few are found to be solid after 1896. As
the M topworks was adapted for the Springmotor machines the brass mandrel
became a hollow cylinder with brass ends pressed in. It was a thick wall
brass which still carried some weight. The smaller diameter end was indented
to allow for the needle bearing guard on the endgate. In 1901 the nickel
plated thin walled drawn brass mandrel allowed for a drastic reduction in brass
costs and reduced the number of machining operations. The indented end
continued for the M and E but the new Triumph line did not require it. For the
rest of the Triumph production the drawn brass mandrel continued to serve
well.

The Home phonograph had the thick walled hollow brass mandrel with end
pieces almost from the earliest machines. Only the very lowest serial numbers
are occasionally found with a solid mandrel and the indented end. The Home
had that thick walled brass mandrel for a long time but wall thickness was
reduced as nickel plating was added. The drawn thin brass mandrel was
introduced before the 1901 new style cabinet change. The length of the mandrel
shaft remained the same until the Model B was introduced."

The message can be read in full here: http://www.intellitechcomputing.com/pip ... 13255.html

This solid mandrel information may not be accurate judging by the last comment in the response. I must have missed the part about the information possibly being only 50% correct! I assumed the info given was accurate and so included it in my post. Oops!

Thanks again for the information and for correcting me on this!

[Andersun]

A legitimate brass mandrel will have no holes in the end plate at the larger end. That larger brass end plate will also fit flush with the mandrel surface (making it appear to be solid) and the edges will be well defined - - not rounded at all.

Later nickeled mandrels have 2 holes in the larger end plate, and the larger end plate will be very slightly recessed, while the mandrel's nickeled surface will be slightly rounded where it meets the end plate.

George P.

George,
Here is a nickel plated mandrel with no holes on either end. Serial number H26372.

Steve

P.S. Added pic after clean up.

[phonogfp]

Thanks Steve! It's always good to learn something! Now I'm wondering if all the earliest nickeled mandrels on Homes and Spring Motors, Ms, etc. from late 1898 - 1900 were like that...

George P.