Alternate materials for recording?

[estott]

Consider that you might ruin your stylus

[VintageTechnologies]

I have noticed that someone is making and selling on eBay limited numbers of plastic resin cylinders that appear to be duplicates of original Blue Amberols, out-of-round defects and all. I wonder how the molds are prepared from the Blue Amberols? Possibly some kind of rubber or silicon is coated thickly on the records and peeled off when dry? I have seen molds made for casting Plaster of Paris created that way. Perhaps a vacuum pump could draw the air bubbles out.

If it is possible to create a mold without electroplating, then it might be relatively easy to record on a very soft master wax, create the mold, then pour epoxy resin.

[McTodd]

Funny you should mention silicone rubber as that is something I intend to experiment with soon. I have considerable experience with using RTV silicone moulding rubbers with casting items (and in one case a whole model kit) in polyurethane resin, and the stuff is incredibly fine and capable of picking up the smallest details (if you leave a greasy fingerprint on a master/pattern, the rubber will pick it up when making the mould).

It is standard practise with larger resin kit manufacturers (who use RTV silicone rubber to make moulds) to use vacuum chambers to draw air-bubbles out of the rubber before pouring it on the master/pattern. When casting, they place the mould filled with liquid resin in a pressure-pot which squeezes any air-bubbles in the resin into solution so that when it's cured it should be flawless.

I don't have that kind of equipment, but it is perfectly possible to obtain flawless air-bubble-free moulds and castings by approaching each stage of the process with a great deal of care and attention.

[mrphonograph]

you can f.i. record with the edison diamond disc i recorded on aluminium discs made from trays and aluminium plates if you have the attachent for lateral records you need to fix it in such a way so it can't move side to side put a used steel needle in the soundbox start themechanism lower the needle on the disc and shout in the edd horn it picks up the sound of your voice faintly but audible

[Chuck]

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[mrphonograph]

well chuck... in a way you would say that since both you and shawn are dealing in wax cylinder blanks it would be bad for both your buisness if someone came up with a good replacement for caustic soap
i do believe there could be good substitutes out there for instance in the field of plastics
there are types of thermo reactive plastics that become maluble when emerced in hot water used in the medical world to make suports for people with weak limbs
if you would make a cylinder with this material it could be used in the way lioret recorded his cylinders using the embossing method
after the recording you emerce it in cold water and it becomes very hard indeed
i had a suport for my wrist for years and i thought of this idea the minute they explained how this material works

greetings
tino

[edisonphonoworks]

The amount of experiment Chuck and I have done would boggle most or your minds, Chuck and I have hundreds of phone hours alone discussing this subject. One customer had the idea that the plastic of test bullets would work, I gave it a try, and it recorded a noisy, faint very limited sound, and one one tried to shave it, it clogged the machine up, making a big plastic ball and smearing as it shaved, or recorded. This is the major problem with using other things than the metallic soap. There are so many things that are right about the metallic soap. To make a blank several particulars need to be met, the material must record rather easily, but yet withstand playback. When you shave the substance it must not ball up, or clog the equipment,it needs to be waxy enough to shave, but not waxy, or it will clog, it must curl off the recording or shaving knife, without sticking to it, In fact it curls off, and turns to a powder, this is a must, as if it is too waxy it will foul shaving or recording. The 1888 formula, is not easy to shave compared to the brown wax formula, it has a slight tendency to ball up when shaving. I am sure that many of you think that Chuck and I are pulling your leg about brown and black wax being an aluminum soap. It is true it is an aluminum based soap, and not made of a blend of waxes, although to work, these formulas contain some waxes to keep moisture from attacking the wax and aid in cutting. Not only does this substance need to be in similar percentages to work,(the amount of variation from Columbia to Edison is so similar to say they are almost identical.) The end result has to be the same. The formula also must be made of certain grades and hardness of the chemicals too, you can get very different cylinders just by using different brands and pressings and hardness's of the same materials. The combination of the materials must be done right to get a good blank, if the temperatures are not correct, or certain temperatures not reached, fog can happen, if it does not go through a stringy dough stage, the wax will be crystalized. Even when the batches are the same exact formula, some blanks are lighter or darker than other, depending on how long the compound is cooked. Usually fresh wax poured after a batch has become placid will produce poor blanks compared with the same exact batch being allowed to cool overnight and reheated, and sometimes doing this twice will result in still better records, while cooking and reheating too many times can ruin the wax. I am including photos of 3 orders I shipped out recently, including one I sent to a list member, notice the different colors, and again the batches do not vary any more than a tenth of a gram. I certainly invite anyone to experiment, It certainly would be nice to find something that is quick to use, results in a hard surface, but can be easily engraved to the minuteness of each sound undulation, be moisture proof, not shrink too much, or warp, and can be processed quickly. A dozen blanks takes about 24 hours of hand labor and 30 days to cure, in fact it takes about 2 hours to shave them all down to the usable size alone! Collectors think we charge to much, but in reality it is slave wages when we sell them at the price we do. I invite anyone to do the same.

[Chuck]

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[BusyBeeCylinder]

I have noticed that someone is making and selling on eBay limited numbers of plastic resin cylinders that appear to be duplicates of original Blue Amberols, out-of-round defects and all. I wonder how the molds are prepared from the Blue Amberols? Possibly some kind of rubber or silicon is coated thickly on the records and peeled off when dry? I have seen molds made for casting Plaster of Paris created that way. Perhaps a vacuum pump could draw the air bubbles out.

If it is possible to create a mold without electroplating, then it might be relatively easy to record on a very soft master wax, create the mold, then pour epoxy resin.

I use metal-filled epoxy to make the molds. You have to make sure that the COE (coefficient of expansion) of your mold is sufficiently different from the resins used or you will never get your record to release from the mold. A true metal mold i.e. electroplated shrinks much less than the resins used by most of the cylinder record manufacturers, and if you want to make a quantity of records that's really the way to go. Electroplating a graphited cylinder to make a mold isn't really that difficult (there is a HUGE hobby built around electroplating), but the cost of the equipment is pretty high to get started. An even easier method than graphiting is the 2-part spray solutions that I assume are still used for plating vinyl. Again, cost of equipment and material pretty much eliminates doing it in your garage.

The COE of metal filled epoxy doesn't doesn't differ that much from the harder resins needed to make a durable record, so you really have to control the temperature at which you cast and release. It is a very time consuming process. The original record must be destroyed to get it out of the mold, and it takes a lot of patience not to damage the mold in the process. Beyond the actual mold, you will need precision fixtures for alignment and creation of the core not to mention the fixtures needed to create the mold.

If there is a record you want to personally make, I would suggest you go to Vulcan Records to have a custom record made...you might not think so, but it's a lot cheaper to go that route to make 'plastic' records than do it yourself. I only got into doing it myself because I got impatient with Vulcan's lead time and I didn't think they had the capacity to fill my needs as they are already doing a lot for other cylinder record companies.

If I knew 2 years ago what I know now I don't think I would have started doing it myself, but at this point I'm committed to the project, at least until I clear enough to pay for all the equipment I purchased, as well as the bill I owe to the local machine shop. I'm sure Shawn Borri is probably in a similar position in that if I figure all the time required to make a record I'm paying myself about $2.35 an hour.

With all that said, you can make a record from a rubber mold as you describe, but it is more a caricature of record. It may be playable, but getting it to be perfectly round is going to be a real challenge. I wasn't able to do it, and I think the electrophone guys experimented with it at one point with the same unsuccessful results.

If anyone has experience with making records or electroforming and wants to compare notes, contact me off list or PM.

Thanks,
Rob