Random Thoughts on Over-Restoration

[Zwebie]

Is it just me, or do over-restorations like this, also bother other members of the forum?

Here we have a fairly uncommon VV-XII that looks like it has been gone over by "American Restoration".
The finish is nowhere near the deep red mahogany it is supposed to be, and looks like Lacquer or Vera thane?
The reproducer gaskets are "bright white" and the felt on the turntable looks like a pool table.
Then we get to the plating, which is so over polished and shiny, as to look like, cheap Chinese plastic.

When will people ever learn that they destroy the value of a "rare" coin by cleaning and polishing it!

The machine appears to have been a good solid original piece!

Now with all the "originality" totally gone, it has just become a "Vanity Piece" for someone’s man cave or a poor investment for an uninformed buyer.

Just My 2 cents,

Bob S.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1910-VICTO ... 255wt_1129

[mrphonograph]

i don't agree afcourse its all down to taste but it doesn't afect the value if you look at the color pics (litho's?)in early catalogues they look just like this
my gut feeling always is when i don't like it i'll wont buy it for my own collection i don't like hmv cabinets and tabletops so i won't buy them and if you dont like this phono than don't buy it its that simple
as far as selling machines i would buy this anytime it wil be gone in no time
but do i like it myself???? hmmmmmm...... nahh not realy but many people do

tino

[Player-Tone]

I agree with you Bob, this bothers me too.

I am the type who would prefer a slightly scratched or chipped original finish over a perfect new one. When I look at the surface of my phonograph I like to think of all the history it reflected over the years. I don’t want that original surface covered up with a new one, even if the object underneath is still original.

It’s like painting a wall, the wall is still there but you are not looking at/touching the original surface anymore.

-Don’t get me wrong, if an original part looks terrible I am all for restoring it, but I don’t think something in good shape should be restored just to make it look new again.

[Starkton]

The finish is nowhere near the deep red mahogany it is supposed to be, and looks like Lacquer or Vera thane?

People seem to have no idea, or don't care, that lacquer is historically wrong on furniture before 1920. Many favor spray paint against better judgement to save money, because to apply a French polish is much more time consuming and must be executed by experts. As a reward, they will have to look all the time on high-gloss plastic surfaces. Have fun with it!

[Steve]

"it failed to sell well"

Probably because it looks like a coffin!

Personally I think it's so dull it needs a good shining up. But how can anything that sold 2551 units ever be described as "rare"? That's a mystery.

What color should the gaskets be? The white looks ok to me. In fact, none of it really offends - I can't imagine how awful it must have looked prior to the restorers deciding to resurrect it. Maybe they should have buried it instead.

[OrthoSean]

Yikes....

Not even that far from me, but I wouldn't want it for all of the reasons stated above. The white gaskets are perfectly appropriate, but the rest of the machine really has been overdone. Sad.

Sean

[martinola]

Hi Bob-

While I agree with you that I'd rather have a slightly tatty machine in original condition than a super shiny tarted-up refinished machine, I must defend some of the reasons to refinish a machine.

To me, unless the machine is a very rare or unique museum piece, a careful refinish is a valid option when much of the original finish is missing or irretrevibly damaged. Different people have different ideas of what the threshold is for triggering a full refinish. Personally, as I get older I find that I have a higher tolerance to old finish defects. I try to find reasons not to refinish. That said, if it's time for a refinish, then it behooves one to do as good a job as possible. Obviously some are better than others when it comes to getting details right.

After looking carefully at the photo of the Victrola in your original post, I think I can lay some of the blame on the look being wrong on the photo itself. The flash used in the photo accentuates the hard edges and shine. The overall color cast is slightly blue, robbing the warm glow of the red mahogany. I'd bet that with proper color correction (and maybe a moss green felt on the turntable and a semi matte finish on the gold tonearm), some of the "wrongness" may disappear.

The problem then isn't so much of a machine being over-restored as it is in getting some of the details wrong. (ie: color off, gold work highly polished rather than matte, wrong color of turntable felt, etc.)

Thanks for bringing this topic up. As collectors and caretakers for the future, this is a conversation that needs to happen on a regular basis.

Regards,
Martin

[De Soto Frank]

The white gaskets on the sound-box look like they're a little too "fat"...

These machines would have originally had mirror-finished nickle, and in the case of the red mahogany, a "piano-finish" ( something like French polish ).

Personally, I prefer my machines in original, patinaed condition.

And even though Victor's red mahogany cabinets were notorious for alligatoring, I'd rather have that than a ham-handed refinish, with no grain filler...

[martinola]

These machines would have originally had mirror-finished nickle, and in the case of the red mahogany, a "piano-finish" ( something like French polish ).

Hi Frank.
Look For The Dog shows this machine as having gold plated parts (except for the turntable). I agree that whoever did the gold plate went too far with the polishing. Upon rechecking the photos on ebay, I find a few photos that have a much warmer cast to them and the finish looks right in these. They're so different looking that they look like "before" photos. Who knows? Maybe they are.

Regards,
Martin

[De Soto Frank]

Hi Martin,

I wasn't thinking about machines that originally had gold-plated hardware ( such as my own original 1909 L-door ) when I posted last night...


I guess I was referring to the original finish on nickel parts, which certainly would have been "mirror nickle" on the taper-tube, sound-box, brake tab, and knobs... not so sure about the plate for the crescent speed control on those models...

One thing about nickle, as it ages, it first develops a yellow tinge, then goes dull, then green, then black...

When I got my oak VV-XI, I took the taper-tube and polished it gently on the buffing wheel... it brightened-up, but I did not achieve "mirror polish", and I did not want to burn through the plating.

I think one thing that distinguishes re-plated parts (at least with Chrome and nickel) is that usually the grinding / buffing process involved in stripping / removing pits and scratches creates "waviness" in flat surfaces, and "softens" once-crisp right-angle edges... the finished part is very shiny, but the surfaces and edges no longer have their orignal perfect surfaces.


The gold on my L-door has a satin look to it, on all parts & hardware: taper-tube, soundbox, controls, knobs. I have not cleaned or polished it.

Again, I think it should probably be a case-by-case of "make all elements of the machine consistent".