EMG Gramophone - Beyond All Hope?

[emgcr]

Thanks for your request Chunny and I hear exactly what you say but I am afraid I have run out of time at present. I shall try to do this in the next month. I probably should not have made any comparison videos at all since it gives rise to so many wrong impressions. As I am sure you well appreciate, the reality in the room with these instruments is often very different to that suggested via YouTube. Recordings that sound good when in the room sometimes sound better on YouTube and others worse or vice-versa ! Whilst I can appreciate the concept, need for, and requirements of compression etc, I do not, of course, understand the technical details of exactly what is added or subtracted throughout the tortuous retransmission processes.

[Frankia]

Pleistocene indeed.
Good one Graham!

what is Pleistocene???, schools just don't teach me enough

I think EMGCR and Orchorsol are probably referring to plasticene which, when I was in early primary school, was a type of clay given to us children to make shapes with. It had a slightly sticky consistency as well, but would fall some light years short of the expert job needed in this case!

[Frankia]

Goodness me, I missed all yesterday's very interesting posts in this thread! Must be the sun! You can't take your eyes off this forum for a minute!
The original paper on the inside of the horn looks as if it must have been lovely. I can't claim to have noticed anything standing out to the eye as easily as that on any of the other Experts and EMGs I've seen, though of course a camera can sometimes define certain elements more than the naked eye.
It re-ignites thoughts of papering ones own!

[emgcr]

I can understand not restoring it if there were lots of these about. How many oversize horns are know to exist?. I know of 5.

I actually know of 6 originals (including this one under discussion)---4 in the UK, 1 in Hong-Kong, 1 in Germany. I am pretty sure there are maybe five or six in Japan including one giant which was spotted at Heathrow some years ago being exported---reportedly with a bell mouth diameter of 54 inches ! There are probably more around the planet awaiting rediscovery. Frank has always maintained that there were only about 50 ever made but I am not sure where he discovered that figure.

[kirtley2012]

Pleistocene indeed.
Good one Graham!

what is Pleistocene???, schools just don't teach me enough

I think EMGCR and Orchorsol are probably referring to plasticene which, when I was in early primary school, was a type of clay given to us children to make shapes with. It had a slightly sticky consistency as well, but would fall some light years short of the expert job needed in this case!

oh, well i know of that, just when i typed pleistocene into the internet it came up with many prehistoric pictures, for some reason!

i wonder where that 54" horn is now, i would love to see some pictures of that when it turns up one day!

[kirtley2012]

I can understand not restoring it if there were lots of these about. How many oversize horns are know to exist?. I know of 5.

I actually know of 6 originals (including this one under discussion)---4 in the UK, 1 in Hong-Kong, 1 in Germany. I am pretty sure there are maybe five or six in Japan including one giant which was spotted at Heathrow some years ago being exported---reportedly with a bell mouth diameter of 54 inches ! There are probably more around the planet awaiting rediscovery. Frank has always maintained that there were only about 50 ever made but I am not sure where he discovered that figure.

i do beleive this one is in france, or atleast it was!

1088_149239_646.jpg (14.08 KiB) Viewed 3862 times

http://www.ivoire-france.com/nos_resultats.php?id=1088

[emgcr]

Very clever of you to find that Alex---well done !! Pity we all didn't hear of it before last May at the sale in France ! Here is the full catalogue entry:

646 - E. M. C. hand made Gramophones
E. M. C. hand made Gramophones Exceptionnel phonographe électrique à disque, dans une ébénisterie en placage de bois blond avec une tête de lecture à diaphragme et un pavillon géant en carton bouilli noir et intérieur argent.

Well we now definitely know of 7. I am sure there will be more. Interesting that we use the French "papier appliqué" but they themselves refer to "carton bouilli"---literally "crushed cardboard". Mind you, the auctioneers might not have known anything about EMG/Experts---quite likely actually ! Wonderful reference to the horn described as "un pavillon géant"---giant (small) detached house !

[Steve]

I believe that EMC (sic.) or EMG (!) was sold as part of the Lacrouts Collection? It amused me no end how immediately following that sale, most of that stuff reappeared on Ebay being sold by continental dealers who had 'made the trip'. It was sadly like the "Curse Of Roger Thorne": the stuff being resold after the main auction did not do well at all. I managed to buy a genuine 1902 German made Zonophone complete with large witches hat horn fairly inexpensively (and it was one of the few items that hadn't fallen under the "Lacrouts Re-chroming Spell" - most items had been replated and not always using nickel either!) from a well known dealer via Ebay. It's not perfect but when will you see another?

I'm not sure if Lacrouts ever owned the EMG though? Other lots from different vendors were also included in the auction that day.

[emgcr]

I heard from a knowledgable friend in Japan this morning who says that he knows of 3 still in existance in his country, making 10 for certain, but that there were probably others sent to the orient in the late eighties or nineteen-nineties. It would appear, therefore, that perhaps a dozen or so may have survived worldwide ?

[emgcr]

Can we have all 4 recordings with the fibre-glass horn on the same gramophone in the workshop. That would make it a fairer comparison as both will have the same acoustics and Youtube limitations.

In view of time constraints, here are two (unlisted) videos of “Cryin’ all day” (Trumbauer’s orchestra) filmed in similar circumstances.

After negotiation of the camera mic’ and YouTube compression which both involve unknown (to me) technical variants, I am finding that it is nigh on impossible to assess the actual performance of either in any meaningful way when compared with reality---misleading impressions can result. I feel there is little point of continuing to make these comparisons since all concerned (many people) who have listened to the performances in the room agree that the clarity, definition and dynamic range of the new fibre-glass horn greatly exceeds that of the damaged horn---as one would expect, almost by definition. I do agree, however, that the impression is given that the damaged horn sounds better. This is only so via the camera and YouTube for some strange reason. I suppose it does compliment the performance of the small digital modern camera and YouTube technology as both versions are appealing I think. The “holographic” element, for which these horns are famous, can only be experienced by a listener who is physically situated in front of the horn.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2xuynZlgM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEB030fq2AM