Buying from dealers on the internet can be a sad affair too

[snallast]

I thought dealers meant security and the website and what you see there of a store looked fine to me. This is what happened:

I bought a HMV model 510 Lumiere diaphragm gramophone on the internet - from a dealer who has the website http://zwarteschijf.nl/ It was described as “in overall good condition”, the pictures I was shown were most probably from another machine. I paid 2200 euros. When it arrived I was very disappointed. The gramophone is completely worn out, full of fungus black spots on the diaphragm and the frame of the diaphragm is badly bent – as well as torn. The metal parts have all the gold finishing worn off and the seams on the wooden box are cracked open and dislodged as it has obviously been stored in a damp place during years, it is in other words - a wreck. At best a project for restoration! I wrote back to the dealer and said I wanted my money back etc. He answered

"... sorry to hear that you are not happy with the machine, but maybe as you play it you like it, the fineer on the side’s is working because of the weather conditions but i think wen you place it in a dry room you can easely glue it back after a few days…”

Now he does´nt answer my mails at all. What to do? Warn people at least? Anyone else out there with an experience like this? Suggestions?

My name is Håkan Dahlström and I live in Stockholm. Happy to supply pictures!

Greetings H D

[Steve]

Warn people at least? Anyone else out there with an experience like this? Suggestions?

Thanks for the warning. That's yet another dealer I can strike off my list. Have I had an experience like this? Sadly, all too often. There aren't many dealers left I would even consider buying from these days. Most of us can now (with the information on the internet and the small scale of the interest) identify where things came from and who bought and swapped one part of a machine with another etc. before it gets re-offered for sale.

I have had some appalling experiences with dealers who claim to be experts of 30 plus years in the field and yet I, as a relative novice of less years, can easily identify repro or replacement parts / new finishes etc that dealers supposedly fail to notice. Are they all dishonest? Well, that's tarring everyone with the same brush. However, I do think that to successfully buy and sell today involves having less of a close look at items you buy and requires a certain amount of economy with the truth when you sell.

I would question if he sent you the right machine. If he says yes, then send him pictures of the machine that show how different it is to the example on the website. I believe you should be entitled to a refund if you return it, sadly at your own expense. If you are POSITIVE that he has sent the wrong item and yet denies this, I would report the matter to your relevant authorities.

Good luck with it and let us know what happens.

The line about living with it and playing it for a few days sounds depressingly familiar. Is it a standard dealer's line? One well known US dealer used it on me. That is simply patronizing and I wouldn't stand for that.

[Le0]

I had a bad experience on Ebay... I bought a brass horn, supposedly in good shape with only a few bumps here and there but I found a couple cracks that weren't mentioned in the listing. the seller told me it happened during shipping but this is just BS as he did the most incredible package job.

so I paid big bucks for something I wouldn't have looked at if I had known about ALL the defects.

hopefully there are a couple good sellers around.

[AZ*]

Sad to hear this. I have purchased relatively small items from that dealer multiple times, and I was very pleased with the price, quality and promptness of shipping each time. It's hard to believe this happened, but obviously you have not had a good experience.

[Starkton]

I thought dealers meant security

You can buy very nice things from phonograph dealers, but you must be at least as well versed as they.

In regard to "De Zwarte Schijf": I haven't bought from him, but a friend got two phonographs just recently. It was no real bargain, but both condition and price were appropriate. I have also heard good reviews concerning this seller from other collectors.

[Raphael]

As a dealer, I offer a "100% Total Satisfaction" guarantee, which includes return shipping costs and any damages in transit to the buyer. Although through the years I have had very few returns, most have been prompted by unscrupulous buyers, who attempt to claim trumped-up damages. One such fellow claimed "significant" damage so I arranged for FedEx to retrieve the shipment. They arrived while he was out to lunch, and his secretary turned the package over to them. When he returned from lunch, he was apoplectic, because his "significant damage" turned out to be a loose corner molding. I immediately refunded all of his costs. His attempt to blackmail me into a rebate failed due to his dishonesty, he lost the opportunity to buy a very rare machine, and I banned him from future business with me.
Thankfully, these episodes are few and far between, and most collectors are honest and appreciative.
And, btw, I resold the machine to a local buyer, who became a major customer of mine as a result of his pleasure with the phonograph.
Raphael

[FloridaClay]

Sadly dishonesty does happen. And I have to say I kick myself now and then too, because something comes and I see a problem that I would have spotted had I just looked at the photos from the seller more carefully or asked the questions I should have asked. I get excited about some potential purchase and get in too big a hurry.

Clay

[Steve]

I get excited about some potential purchase and get in too big a hurry.

Indeed. We've all been there! I think it's called being a collector!

[beaumonde]

Sad to hear this. I have purchased relatively small items from that dealer multiple times, and I was very pleased with the price, quality and promptness of shipping each time. It's hard to believe this happened, but obviously you have not had a good experience.

Similar to AZ, I have bought medium tone steel needles from this seller several times, but can't speak regarding his reliability with phonographs.

[USlakeside]

Can you post pictures of the real machine next to the pictures you saw online before your bought? Good for the archive.