Victor horn machines, reproducers & options

[Valecnik]

This started on another thread where it really didn't belong. All observations encouraged!

I've seen Victor machines, ( I have at least one) with two sets of holes drilled in the back, one above the other. So... theoretically horn machine could have been offered with one reproducer and the back bracket adjusted up or down to accommodate a concert or exhibition reproducer. So if if the elbow and U joint do not track totally horizontally, it could just be because the machine was disassembled and reassembled improperly...

And what about those machines that were offered new with multiple options? I've got a repro 1908 Victor catalogue that offers a Victor I with either concert or exhibition reproducer, your choice for the same price. In another catalogue, the victor I is offered with a petaled horn, or brass bell horns, concert or exhibition soundbox, similarly sized horns, same price.

So, arguably a fairly late Victor machine could have been purchased new with a concert sound box and brass bell horn or small petaled horn for the same price. Hmmm

[alang]

I was following these discussions in several unrelated threads with great interest. Of course I immediately checked my Victor. My 1906 Vic II came with its original round hole Exhibition reproducer and it sits level without a needle. Add a needle and a record and it sits at a slight upward angle. Only one set of holes for the back bracket. So what does that tell us? Did Victor decide to drill at a happy medium at some point to be open for both types of reproducer?

Andreas

[Le0]

my Victor IV has only one set of holes... but I've seen some machines with two holes.
I would like to see the comparison pictures of Exhibition vs. Concert on the same machine and check the "U" tube angle.

[gramophone78]

I was following these discussions in several unrelated threads with great interest. Of course I immediately checked my Victor. My 1906 Vic II came with its original round hole Exhibition reproducer and it sits level without a needle. Add a needle and a record and it sits at a slight upward angle. Only one set of holes for the back bracket. So what does that tell us? Did Victor decide to drill at a happy medium at some point to be open for both types of reproducer?

Andreas

Andreas, Your machine could have very well been with that exhibition from new. The original owner must have up-graded it at the time. Hell, the salesman probably told them "it will sound sooo much better". Guess what??....the salesman was right!!!. Not a very hard sell in my eyes.
However, the fact remains that your machine was "drilled" or "adjusted" or whatever term you wish to use for a concert reproducer on the end of that tone arm. Plain and simple.

Here are two pics of one of my Victor 6's. It is an early 6. So, it was made while the concert was being offered. However, the company called it a #10. Same darn thing...right??.
When I first bought my 6 it had a very early "round hole" ex. on it (see pic). Now, my 6 has a $105 price tag on the bottom. Which means it had a #10 "from the factory". So, when I found my #10, it went right on this machine (see pic).....a no brainer right??. Maybe I should have just left the ex. on because that's the way "I" found it.

You can compare the pics yourselves and you be the judge as to what "appears" correct.
BTW, the #10 will never leave this machine while I own the two... .

[gramophone78]

I thought it only right to show examples of "later" produced models. As you can see....here is a late Vic.4 & Vic.3. Both with ex's and the arms are level. One of these machine's came from the original family. However, that still means nothing.
One last piece of info.....on my "very" late mahogany 5.....ex's were long gone by the time this machine was made. Guess what reproducer was used to make the arm level??.......a Victrola #2.... .

[SonnyPhono]

This is all very interesting and a bit confusing considering all the variations. I'm glad to see this thread was started. I too have owned Victor machines with two sets of holes. I remember thinking it was a factory mistake or something of that nature.

It was my understanding that the Concert was issued with machines until the Exhibition was introduced. At that point, the Exhibition was issued on all machines unless the customer preferred a Concert, which was available as an option for the same price. I thought I read this at some point but now am not too confident and may have this backwards. But it would make sense that Victor would have wanted machines to use the Exhibitions, right? Why would they design the Exhibition that was designed to have improved sound over the Concert, but then continue to issue the Concert on machines without increasing the Exhibition's optional price?

I think I'm a bit confused about the optional reproducer issue. If a machine was issued from the factory with one of the two reproducers at that time and a customer chose the other optional reproducer for the same cost, would the two just have been swapped? If so, surely the dealer wouldn't have been responsible for re-drilling the holes higher or lower to compensate for the change, right? If not, then would this scenario be possible. A machine could have been shipped from the factory with a Concert and when purchased, the customer could have chosen the optional Exhibition. If there were only holes for the Concert and the dealer wasn't responsible for addressing this, then the machine could still have an Exhibition today that causes a raise in the U tube, but is correct for that particular machine.

[Valecnik]

This is all very interesting and a bit confusing considering all the variations. I'm glad to see this thread was started. I too have owned Victor machines with two sets of holes. I remember thinking it was a factory mistake or something of that nature.

It was my understanding that the Concert was issued with machines until the Exhibition was introduced. At that point, the Exhibition was issued on all machines unless the customer preferred a Concert, which was available as an option for the same price. I thought I read this at some point but now am not too confident and may have this backwards. But it would make sense that Victor would have wanted machines to use the Exhibitions, right? Why would they design the Exhibition that was designed to have improved sound over the Concert, but then continue to issue the Concert on machines without increasing the Exhibition's optional price?

I think I'm a bit confused about the optional reproducer issue. If a machine was issued from the factory with one of the two reproducers at that time and a customer chose the other optional reproducer for the same cost, would the two just have been swapped? If so, surely the dealer wouldn't have been responsible for re-drilling the holes higher or lower to compensate for the change, right? If not, then would this scenario be possible. A machine could have been shipped from the factory with a Concert and when purchased, the customer could have chosen the optional Exhibition. If there were only holes for the Concert and the dealer wasn't responsible for addressing this, then the machine could still have an Exhibition today that causes a raise in the U tube, but is correct for that particular machine.

I agree, it's not so simple. According to at least one piece of literature I have a victor II, for example is offered as follows:
- Late style plain case with no. 19 flower horn OR the H sized brass bell horn for $32.50
- Appears the exhibition is offered on the machine at that price but exhibition and concert sound boxes are both offered separately, both $5 in the same catogue.

So, presumably, one could purchase new a 1909 (or later) Vic II, III etcetera with brass bell horn and concert sound box.

As has been mentioned, why someone would choose the concert at that late stage is odd but...

[gramophone78]

As we all know, a customer did not order "their" machine directly from Victor. You went to one of many stores that carried Victor products and were already stocked with machine's that were already put together and ready to buy. Do think at Xmas time they were worried the "U" tube was not quite right??. I would say not. Sales and numbers. That was job one..... .
Sure, you could go into one of these many store's and "custom" order a machine. We all have seen those great & rare custom machine's. You could even order a custom finish.

Victor Talking Machine Co. was a "wholesale only" company. Not open to the general public.

Now, I stated I have never seen a number model that has two pairs of back bracket holes. Perhaps these cases were left over during the phase out of the concert??. However, I now have a question regarding these cases....There is a screw that was used to stabilize the threaded metal plate that the back bracket bolts go into. Is there a second hole for that center plate screw also???. If not....what holds the plate from falling??.
Sonny, the concert was offered when the "letter" machine's were being sold. So it had been out for awhile before the number machine's.

Keep in mind the concert was already on the way out. There was no comparison to the sound and light weight of the ex. (on your new records) over the concert.
We must also keep in mind that many period "audiophiles" would be hitting their local store for the "latest" in sound improvements......just like today. Victor along with others used to offer deals like....."trade in your old crappy concert for our improved ex and our dealer will give you a $100 off your purchase".

As I wrote before......this was a business...plain and simple. Making money by selling extra's was the name of "that" game. I would think that salesman's were also paid a commission or bonuses based on their sales.

Sonny Wrote: "then the machine could still have an Exhibition today that causes a raise in the U tube, but is correct for that particular machine".
Sonny, you are very correct... .

[SonnyPhono]

I'm still confused that anyone thinks a customer ordered "their" machine directly from Victor. They did not. You went to one of many stores that carried Victor products and were already stocked with machine's that were already put together and ready to buy.

I guess I wasn't clear on what I meant by "ordered". I didn't mean the customer ordered it from the factory. I meant order as in the customer was buying a machine from a dealer and chose the optional reproducer. So, if the machines at a Victor dealing store were already put together and were ready to buy, would they have been assembled in both configurations? One setup for the Concert reproducer and the same model setup for an Exhibition? If the literature stated a certain reproducer was standard issue with the other being an option, then I would imagine either the machines had to be setup in both configurations in the store to offer both, or at least have two sets of holes for adjusting between the two, like this one does:

Victor along with others used to offer deals like....."trade in your old crappy concert for our improved ex and our dealer will give you a $100 off your purchase".

That was what I meant with my reasoning that Victor would issue the Exhibition with every machine and the Concert would have been optional. It doesn't make sense for Victor to issue the Concert reproducer on their machines with the Exhibition as a free optional upgrade. Because it was superior in sound, surely it would have been an option with an increase in price. But I too have seen the literature stating either reproducer could be chosen by the customer at the same price. That said, if the Exhibition was the reproducer Victor issued on machines after it was introduced then the holes in the cabinets would have been placed accordingly. If this was the case, then what would have happened when someone went into a store and chose the optional Concert reproducer at no extra charge? Would the holes have to be altered, or would the machine have been sold with a Concert reproducer attached to a tonearm setup for an Exhibition?

[Valecnik]

So, presumably, one could purchase new a 1909 (or later) Vic II, III etcetera with brass bell horn and concert sound box.

It would be no big deal to remove one reproducer in a shop for the other which was preferred, just as I assume it would be no big deal to swap a petalted horn displayed on the machine in the shop for a brass bell horn, for the same price.

I doubt they bothered to redrill the case to adjust. I'm sure most customers never noticed and if they did, any concerns they raised about the variation in height were dismissed.

I'd conclude that whether the reproducer U joint rides horizontally on the record or at a slight angle might be a indication as to which reproducer was purchased new with your machine but wouldn't prove it one way or the other in most cases.