Victor horn machines, reproducers & options

[gramophone78]

Whoopinola wrote:"has not been in the hands of another collector"

Well, that you know of. Hard to say who has owned it in 100+ years. Many "collectors" years ago were not just Gramophone collectors. Just collectors of neat older things. Many men back as early as the 1930's were collecting older Gramophones & radio. Ray Phillips was a pre-war collector.

Soundgen wrote: "three sets of holes one being offset to the left side looking at the back , presumably to take a travelling arm !".

Yes, that is common over here as well for machine's that were originally intended for front mount use.

Now, here is another thought......so far the pics I've have seen with the two pairs of back bracket holes appear to be of early production.
Could it be that these machine's were first drilled for a "ridged tone arm"??. Keep in mind that it was short lived. Never owning one.....I can say how different the bracket "height" is between it and the tapered arm bracket.

I could be way off base here. I would like to see if those known (pair machine's) are all early.

[penman]

The mounting plates on my machines look the same as the photo posted with 2 sets of holes on the plate but only one set on the case. Likely Victor produced the plates with both holes early on so they didn't have to have more than one stock of them and depending on how the machines were assembled case holes could be drilled at the factory. Both my machines are early production MS's. One was originally sold as back mount # 7854. The other was probably first sold as a front mount, then traded in for something newer and re-sold as a rear mount. It has the famous useless bracket, and has a Victor factory second hand sticker on the bottom #8758. I would guess the double hole brackets were only used for a couple of years.

[Valecnik]

I have a Victor E rigid arm with two sets of holes. If you mount the back bracket in the upper set of holes, the reproducer with needle inserted cannot even touch the record. It's too high and with no U joint, the arm has no flexibility to go lower than horizontal.

[rizbone]

I just pulled the bracket off of my rigid arm Monarch and it is also drilled for both heights (five holes in the back and supporting plate).

[Phototone]

Its been decades since I had one of my Victor machine tone-arms apart, but if I recall directly, the U-tube, where it fits into the tone-arm has an oval shaped hole, therefore the sound will not be restricted with the slight up or down positioning of different reproducers. Even needles have different lengths depending on brand and loudness, this affecting the height of the reproducer.

[gramophone78]

[quote="Phototone"]Its been decades since I had one of my Victor machine tone-arms apart, but if I recall directly, the U-tube, where it fits into the tone-arm has an oval shaped hole, therefore the sound will not be restricted with the slight up or down positioning of different reproducers.

You do know that a Victor taper tone arm is round...right??. It's also "not" solely the "U" tubes that have a "round" hole....but there is a "round" opening in the tone arm itself.
Of course since the "U" tube is a pipe. When a round hole is cut into it...it will appear ovalish (sort of speak).

[Uncle Vanya]

Bruce Wrote:"I'd conclude that whether the reproducer U joint rides horizontally on the record or at a slight angle might be a indication as to which reproducer was purchased new with your machine but wouldn't prove it one way or the other in most cases".

You are correct. Again, to keep this simple....any machine you may own of the number series that has the "U" tube level while in play (concert/ex.).....is the way it was adjusted when it left the factory. Now, like anything in life....there will be anomalies.
Also, when the concert was no longer used....those machine's will be adjusted for the ex.
That's it. Nothing too complicated.
Thanks for the pic showing two sets of holes......so, I assume there are two sets of tapped holes in the metal plate??.
I wish we could "prove" these "second" set of holes were indeed "factory" made..... . However, after 100+ years....that could be very difficult.

A guess on my part as stated earlier by me....these cases may have already been made when the concert was dropped..??. Cases were made in the hundreds at a time. Certain models stock may have lingered??. Victor was certainly known for using "left over" parts to put machines together. Again, sales & numbers.

On another note....."horns". If you read "later" literature of Victor's, you will see that the B&B horn was phased out. The flower horn became the "base" horn.

In closing.....there is no right or wrong, correct or incorrect. Because upgrades/improvements could be and were made by original owners while they were buying their new machine. I have to assume that only the factory was concerned that "their" tone arm design was set up properly aligned. The salesman or customer may not have. It's not like it retards the sound by "that" much..... .

The plates with 2 sets of holes ( and cabinets so fitted) turn up on early machines with the bevel drive motors so often that they are doubtless quite original. I recall seeing the double holes on only one spiral drive machine, very early Victor III with an Arabic numeral plate. I deeply regret not noting the serial numbers of machines found with these variations back in the 1970's and 1980's when unquestionably untouched machines were more commonly found.

[gramophone78]

UV, I had a suspicion that the "two hole" machine's were of early manufacture. However, since I don't collect the early models or front mounts (unless Berliner). I am just surmising this. As stated before in the very first thread (YT)....I have never own or seen one with two holes in the wood case.
Thanks for confirming this to some degree.
If indeed this is the case (early).....that would make a lot of sense.