Replica 1895 Berliner - Help Needed! - SOLD!

[Jerry B.]

What did the replica sell for back in the eighties? I realize that todays value has no connection to a current value. I'm just curious. I suspect todays value is a fraction of the original price. Jerry

[Valecnik]

What did the replica sell for back in the eighties? I realize that todays value has no connection to a current value. I'm just curious. I suspect todays value is a fraction of the original price. Jerry

I seem to recall those going for $600 but could be wrong. Perhaps that was the trademark type Ron Sitko was selling?

[Starkton]

As for the horns on Kammer & Reinhardt machines, I'm hoping that Starkton will weigh in with the definitive answer

I have no definite answer, because many varieties of K & R gramophones were marketed, but I believe that conical brass horns are reproductions. Here are examples on a brass, and a then less expensive nickel plated, K & R model.

[gramophone78]

As for the horns on Kammer & Reinhardt machines, I'm hoping that Starkton will weigh in with the definitive answer

I have no definite answer, because many varieties of K & R gramophones were marketed, but I believe that conical brass horns are reproductions. Here are examples on a brass, and a then less expensive nickel plated, K & R model.

I happen to know the owner of the first pic you show and he knows it's repro also. The only pic I can find that shows a horn even close but not really conical is this artist rendering. However, I would saw (based on design) it too is mache.

[Starkton]

The research goes on. Here is an interesting early variety of a K & R(?) gramophone with conical horn, marketed in 1892 by Franz Steflitschek in Vienna. Source: http://www.phonorama.fr/nouveautes.html

[phonogfp]

Thanks for posting this, Stephan!

George P.

[gramophone78]

Here is a K&R approved "cut drawing" circa 1890's. Again showing a plain horn much like what is found on their small models. However, in this "drawing".....it too appears to be mache. As most of us know...."cut drawings" have the unfortunate reputation of "artistic licence", as we know too well in Metaphone cut drawing...ie: the horn was never at a 45 degree angle, etc....
I don't believe there is any physical evidence to show that Herr Steflitscheck ever produce this Gramophone or even the "wax cylinder" model that is next to it. No,it is not a tinfoil model but an intermediate between tinfoils and spring models (*note* the inadequate sound reproducing horn on it...."artistic licence" also ?) . I believe the publication is merely to reference in a vague way machines of the period. Here is the wax cylinder machine. I am not aware of this model in existence either. Then you would have to ask....would K&R (in 1892!!) allow another company to produce an instrument that they just paid well for to Berliner??. I sincerely doubt that. There is also no evidence that has survived today that can confirm K&R Gramophone's ever used a metal or brass conical horn. Mr. Anton was kind to provived me with this information as well: The date of the catalog is not indicated, here is the information I got from Austria The price catalogs are in Fl, which implies a date before 1892 ..
Fl = Florins (French) or Österreichischen Gulden (German) or Guilders (English) .I thank Mr. Anton for the use of the Franz Stflitscheck pic.

K&R 1890's.jpg (63.77 KiB) Viewed 1455 times

[Starkton]

Concerning the gramophone model with "plain horn" I cite the article of Patrick Feaster and me: "The Beginning of the German Talking Machine Industry (Part 4)", in The Sound Box, Vol. XXIX, No. 3, September 2011, pp. 3-7. We wrote that the "preproduction model of July 1890 [...] differs from the model actually put into production." Drawings of both are pictured in the article.

Franz Steflitschek exclusively sold apparatus manufactured in his workshop. I cite the relevant passage from his catalogue: "welche ausschließlich in meiner Werkstätte angefertigt werden." The catalogue description explicitely mentions that this gramophone with larger horn ("mit größerem Schallhorn") was patterned after Berliner's model ("nach Berliner"). That means that it was no Chinese copy. Hence, I have no reason to doubt that Steflitschek's gramophone including conical horn was identical to the illustration. It was sold for 25 Guilders, equivalent to $10. By the way, I don't know if K & R had an agent in Austria who looked after the patent.

The catalogue was printed at the time of the transition between Guilder and Austrian Crown, because Steflitschek specified an exchangable rate of 1 Guilder = 2 Austrian Crowns ("Kronen österreichischer Währung"). The Austrian Crown was just introduced in 1892. Hence, the earliest possible date of the catalogue is also 1892.

Here are scans from the catalogue:

[gramophone78]

I'm a bit confused by the last post. Please clarify for me. The price of 25 Guilders...??. If you look at the price legend, you will note there is "fl & kr" above the prices. This represents Florins & Kronens. Therefore, my interpretation is, the machine was offered for 25 florins not Guilders as the "25" is under the "fl" column. Also, the passage for the cut drawing can be interpreted as....Grammophon "according to" Berliner (,) with large horn (or sound tube) (as written). Not Grammophon with large horn according to Berliner. Since the date is "earliest" 1892......how much later could it be....one, five years later??. Given the publication has no actual date....it's all speculation.

Herr Schlitscheck could have been making these "physical apparatus for the teaching" (as the publication title states) long after "their" initial introduction had waned. Herr Schlitschek may have offered these "models" for use in institutions for further study and nothing more.

If "drawings" exist from K&R that show a pre-production model with simple cone horn....one can also see this again as "artist licence" or did K&R have an actual "patent number" for this type of "plain horn". I have never seen this and would love to.
Here is Berliner's "patent drawing" filed in Washigton DC on November 25 1895. This horn looks quite familiar to me. Keep in mind, that is when the drawing was filed in the US. Who knows when the drawing was actually commissioned...???.

[Starkton]

1 Guilder Austrian currency is abbreviated to "1 Fl. ö. W." (1 Florin österreichischer Währung). It is also called "Florin" (in Austria) and "Forint" (in Hungary)