brown wax question

[soundgen]

All of the modern phonograph literature states not to use anything but floating-weight reproducers or Automatic / Model B reproducers on Brown Wax for the reasons stated by George Paul above, however I've never seen any notes on the fact that Edison Recorders, both 2 and 4-minute, were sold concurrently with Model C and the assortment of 4-minute reproducers. To me this indicates that Brown Wax recordings- at least home recordings- were intended to be used with the updated "doorknob" stylus reproducers. Whether or not they were to be used with commercial Brown Wax is another story given that the major companies had ceased production when the Model C and 4-minute reproducers were out. Has anybody heard of any post-Automatic period literature suggesting the use of only the Automatic (or floating weight) for Brown Wax?

Personally, I only play my own homemade Brown Wax recordings with a Model C because I often re-record on cylinders so I am not terribly worried about damaging the grooves. The couple original Brown Wax cylinders I have or any I find are played with either a floating weight or an Automatic reproducer.

My friend Gerry used to record Elvis onto old mouldy unplayable black wax cylinders , he did this using a hair dryer placed in front of the cylinder and shaving and recording on the softened wax the results were amazing ! I wish I had kepst some . so don't throw old mouldy cylinders away you can make use of them !

[Chuck]

Wow, there have been some very interesting and
insightful postings here, in response to the
question of playing brown wax with a C reproducer.

Let me chime in here, and add some things to
what everyone else has already said:

George, as usual, you are most correct in pointing out that it is our duty as the keepers of this old equipment to assure that
as much of it as possible survives intact so
that people in another 500 years can have the
parts as they were made at the factory, not chopped up, filed up, changed, altered, butchered by someone a few hundred years ago.

About the ball stylus vs the trunkated form
of the model C "doorknob" : Yes, the ball does spread out the loading on the record's
surface a bit more than the C "doorknob" does.

What you will find when you do comparitive
listening tests using a model C vs a ball
stylus reproducer is that the ball tends to
be a bit louder, and more robust sounding, but
not quite as crisp and clear as the C.

The C can tend to sound just a hair more tinny
when compared with the ball, but the C will
also tend to talk up so much more crisply
on a talking record made for testing.

A very very crisply recorded voice test will
indeed yield up somewhat crisply enunciated
"S", "T" and "P" sounds in a voice test recorded on brown wax, when played with the
ball. However, the crispness really shines
through when the model C is used.

The model C does tend to wear brown wax a bit
more than a ball stylus reproducer does, but
I find that this difference is not a lot.

I would not play an original old brown wax
recording with a C. But I use the C all the
time here doing tests, and it does not seem to
wear the records very much.

Now, about Shawn's response:

Shawn, why don't you just call Stearic Acid,
stearic acid, instead of using the term
"octadecanoic" acid? That terminology just
serves to add confusion, throwing everybody off. It's stearic acid, plain and simple.

You are correct that the stearic used 120
years ago was animal tallow based, and now
in the present we now have many other bases
available. There are bases such as palm,
and other vegetable derived things in addition
to animal tallow. Nowadays they even have
other methods of refining the end product such
as hydrogenation, instead of "pressing".
(in other words they refine it chemically
rather than mechanically)

But, without going off into another detailed
technical rant, it all boils down to there's
a large variety of stearic acid types to
choose from these days to make brown wax from.

As far as your table there about the aluminum
content of the wax, it basically boils down
to a range from roughly .20% up to around
.50% aluminum content. In common everyday easily understood english language words, anything in the range from about a quarter to a half a percent aluminum will make workable brown wax.

What you don't say there though, Shawn, is
what happens to the wax with some of those
higher aluminum concentrations. One has to
be extremely careful with the amount of
aluminum added because at higher concentrations, the wax tends to start getting
all wrinkly and hard. When it does that,
it can wreck shaver cutters and recorder cutters. Any too much aluminum can yield up
aluminum oxide as a precipitate in the wax,
which can wear away a sapphire cutter in about
two shakes of a lamb's tail!!!

So, the end result is that when making brown
wax, one must always keep a very critical eye
on how the whole formula is balanced.

Oh yes, and also when the aluminum content
is high, then the hot runny liquid wax can tend to put off bubbles. Even after it really
should not, it still will, even when casting
it into cylinders, and then those bubbles can
and do solidify inside the blank, like little
time bombs, just waiting to be shaved into.

That, as we all know creates a very annoying
little pit in the surface of the record.

Those are some of the things that start happening up at the high end of the aluminum
range in the brown wax.

Then, of course, there are many other factors
involved in casting this wax in order to obtain good cylinders of a reliable quality.
Little things such as pre-heating the mold, and then assuring a slow cooling in absolutely
still air, in a temperature-controlled room.

Those are just a few of the many variables.

Chuck

[LONG ISLAND]

Thank you one and all for the time you have spent replying to my question. All well written and informative to say the very least.
As a point of reference without taking up too much of your time, I have only been collecting Edison phonograpghs for the past four years and restore what some may call'JUNKERS" which now total seven machines. One Home Banner, two Home long box models,three Standards A,B and E and my personal favorite a Fireside model A. My reproducers are comprised of a C,H and K. As George P. wrote it might be advantagous to purchase a Model B also. If you would not mind George, please get in touch with my wife so she can increase my hobby allowance to help me facilitate this purchase. Just be prepared to duck as she throws a cast iron pan at your head over the internet. Ha Ha!!
The reason for my question was because the person originally mentioned was offering a cylinder copy of "TAKE ME OUT TO THE BALLGAME" which I would love to have. Does anyone of this Forum know where I might obtain a copy on black wax? I received two personal messages which gives me pause to re-think this original source might not be wise. As to the personal messages I did receive, I thank you both and will respond in length when I return to New York later this week.
THANK YOU ONE AND ALL
Gerard

[edisonphonoworks]

http://youtu.be/nQ-9-A3rs50 This is a take me out to the ball game I just recorded for demonstration. Yes I played it with a model C and it is made on one of my brown wax blanks.