one horn better than another?

[sq4wonder]

Is there much sound difference between a "witches hat" (not requiring a crane) and a morning glory horn? I am considering getting a witches hat horn to use on my machine as it is easily removed and set up.

Thoughts?

[VintageTechnologies]

A large morning glory horn will be louder and produce a lower bass tone.

[Chuck]

The morning glory horn sealed airtight
will sound much more robust than the rather
tinny sounding witch's hat ever can.

Best advice I can give about horns is get
a whole bunch of different ones and try them
all.

Chuck

[estott]

Any large horn (straight or not) will sound better than a small witches hat horn.

[larryh]

A friend just sent me a link yesterday to a machine with an amazing sounding horn. I had never heard of it till then. The sound is quite striking but it makes one wonder how the horn is attached at the size it is? And from the videos I wondered if the horn is an add on rather than the way it originally worked. I see the two doors below the record player portion and just make me think maybe that was the original horn out let? Or it could be record storage.. Anyone have some farther information on this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cliEsw2V ... e=youtu.be

What ever it is I would never have thought that kind of sound possible. I do think many of the recordings are electrical thus the reason the bass is so pronounced.


Larry

[Frankia]

You've stumbled upon one of Graham Rankin's amazing reproduction horns of the British company known as EMG. The gramophone you're looking at is actually a table model, not a floor standing one. The doors you see are part of what the gramophone rests on. The horn itself slots into a dedicated metal aperture in the top of the case and is exactly as EMG built them originally I think, except that these modern examples are built from fibreglass rather than the original "papier applique" method. The original horn of this size first came on the market in 1933 as far as I know, though they built several other horns of various smaller sizes.
I own one of these newly manufactured horns, complete with a gramophone renovated from the badly deteriorated remains of an original case. The sound is just about the best sound possible to experience from an acoustic reproduction in my opinion. The strong bass sound is also due to the fact that the diameter of the horn is in the region of thirty three and a half inches. The whole sound carrying system in these gramophones was worked out with great expertise to the foremost mathematical principles of the day.
I'll stop now because I am more an EMG lover than an EMG expert! No doubt someone(just about anyone!) better qualified than myself will be along to elucidate things better before long.

[larryh]

Frankia,

Thanks for the information.. I mentioned that I thought the horn appeared perhaps new, but didn't know any of the history of the machines. A truly amazing sound.. Is the horn attached to the tone arm with a hose or how does that part work? A photo of the set up would be interesting if you have one. I think the paper horn sounds like something one might possibly duplicate? Did they produce an internal horn of larger dimensions?

Larry

[Frankia]

The horn is attached to the tone arm by means of a metal conduit, the end of which is the aperture where the horn fits on the top of the case. As I said previously, the whole apparatus is scientifically worked out, with the metal conduit forming part of the exponentially lengthening and widening sound reproduction system which finishes at the mouth of the horn.
Graham himself is a member of this board (emgcr) and I'm sure will be happy to fill you in properly when he finds this thread. He has done many years of painstaking research and has rebuilt the original former for the horns. He has built twelve of them. A truly unique gift to the gramophone fraternity.
If you don't mind, I'd prefer to leave explanations etc. to him or to one of the other much more qualified personnel on this board to take this further. (For instance, I can't remember the type of metal used in the conduit from the tone arm to the horn!!)
Orchorsol, another member of this board, also understands the technology of these gramophones, and doubtless there are others as well!

[Frankia]

I forgot to add that while EMG at the very beginning, and while the firm was operating under a different name, did produce a small internal horn machine - the Magnaphone I think it may have been called - their whole raison d'etre was to produce the best sound possible for real music enthusiasts. It was understood by then that the less bends in the reproduction pathway, and the larger the horn, the better the sound. This could best be achieved by means of an external horn, and their gramophone production in those years, again I stress - as far as I know - consisted exclusively of external horn instruments.
There is a well written and informative book written on this company and their great rival the "Expert" gramophone company by Frank James. It's called The EMG Story. Unfortunately it's very hard to come by at present. It's worth keeping an eye out for a even a second hand copy, maybe on ebay possibly.

[Orchorsol]

Graham himself is a member of this board (emgcr) and I'm sure will be happy to fill you in properly when he finds this thread. He has done many years of painstaking research and has rebuilt the original former for the horns. He has built twelve of them. A truly unique gift to the gramophone fraternity.
If you don't mind, I'd prefer to leave explanations etc. to him or to one of the other much more qualified personnel on this board to take this further. (For instance, I can't remember the type of metal used in the conduit from the tone arm to the horn!!)
Orchorsol, another member of this board, also understands the technology of these gramophones, and doubtless there are others as well!

Ha! You pay me an excessive compliment there dear Frankia, but thank you! I can't claim to understand the technology any more than vaguely - for one thing, it relates to mathematics that can't even be solved in two dimensions, let alone three (in terms of sound wavefront development in the horn).

EMG and Expert horns are based on Percy Wilson's 'modified exponential' or 'reducing tangent' designs, which were innovative refinements/extensions of the earlier works on gramophone horn theory - as were e.g. Victor's Orthophonic designs - these being two of many different viable approaches to horn acoustics depending on application, source, etc. This year we've had contact with various acoustic scientists who were very excited to hear of Graham's fantastic re-creations. We're told the Wilson designs are not as technologically remote as might be imagined, even though they were one of many blind alleys historically speaking - i.e. not necessarily any less highly developed than modern cutting-edge horn loudspeaker designs.

Technology and history are all very well, but hearing them is the thing! Or rather, how they render the music! I played my EMG Xb to a a professional recording engineer friend recently who described the experience as "life changing".