Berliner Hand Wind Info

[gramophone78]

Both machines have a brand on the wood base without the Oct. 29 1895 date. In fact Berliner records with a '95 recording date have the exact same brand .....missing Oct. 29 1895. This leads me to believe that both of these model's were made in 1895.

Your conclusion stands on shaky feet when you examine the content of Berliner patent 548,623 of October 29, 1895. It patents a method of making stampers and the subsequent pressing of discs. There was no immediate need to alter the hot-branding on gramophone bases.

The state of affairs was completely different for the patent stamps on gramophone records, which were immediately altered for sure. By the way, I would like to mention that the photo of the "Ghost Dance" Berliner is taken from an ebay auction. Since then, this, perhaps unique, disc is in my collection.

The record that was on Ebay was used just to show the Oct. 29 1895 date added to the brand. Not it's rarity or title. I have now used one of my own (it's not like you to post Ebay pics.... ). Regardless of the patent date. The fact that two machine's 155 apart that are identical in every way except the finish......tells me there were at least two finishes offered at the same time and not just the later models were with copper wash, but some early models were too.
It is clear (as already stated) that the hand wind design was changed by 1896. The three hole design is on the cover of SA and every ad from that period shows a three hole flywheel. Therefore, it is just common sense that these two examples are of earlier production. Again, I believe that Berliner serial numbers on these machine's are a way to establish a chronological order. Taking all the evidence at hand mentioned above.....I still believe these two machine's date from 1895 and were offered at the same time.

[phonogfp]

All it suggests to me is that there was a transition period where both finishes were available.

George P.

[Valecnik]

All it suggests to me is that there was a transition period where both finishes were available.

George P.

I don't think I've seen any literature suggesting alternative finishes were available, but there's so little available. Couldn't it be also that when the supply of "finish" was replentished, a little different hue, cheaper, more available whatever was purchased and used until it ran out or even in parallel with previously purchased supply?

[gramophone78]

All it suggests to me is that there was a transition period where both finishes were available.

George P.

Exactly George. So to say that only the later production was with a copper wash is a "myth". Some of the early type models were as well...... . I

I wish there was some paper that has survived that shows the early model. All the ads I have found all show the three holes. Unless you have or have seen paper showing the solid flywheel ?.
Any thoughts as to why he changed the flywheel to "three holes" ?. Was it again a cost saving measure or a way to balance or drag reduction while in play ?. Whatever the reason.....Berliner stayed with this design to the end of this model. There is this Berliner image. However, we can not make out if this machine has the holes or not....

[gramophone78]

All it suggests to me is that there was a transition period where both finishes were available.

George P.

I don't think I've seen any literature suggesting alternative finishes were available, but there's so little available. Couldn't it be also that when the supply of "finish" was replentished, a little different hue, cheaper, more available whatever was purchased and used until it ran out or even in parallel with previously purchased supply?

It's possible Bruce. Although it is convenient to add the Gramophones production practices with what Phonograph companies were doing......The fact is we do not know for sure. If what Berliner did in Canada is any indication (sequential numbering)....then why change?. If we are looking at a period where the company is just getting off the ground.....then would the machine not be made sequentially??. Berliner may not have been personally constructing the machines. However, he would have set the ground rules as to how he wanted things done. If I were manufacturing an item, I would want to know how many I have made/sold. What better way then to follow the serial number run. It was the only machine/model being made at the time by Berliner. Even if a batch of strap reproducers were made at one time......how many were made?. 10 or 100??. Lets say 100 for argument sake. If my machine (copper) is lower than the black & gold by 155. Then, it is technically older and already out the door. How many machines were made in a day at this very early stage??. Berliner did not have a large retail/marketing set up quite yet. Seamen was not in the fold until 1896.

[gramophone78]

Thanks to a member. I was able to find information in a Fall 1993 issue of ARCS journal (article by Raymond Wile ) where it is written Berliner himself in 1898 estimates he had sold 1000 machines and 25,000 records in the Fall of 1894 out of their showroom in Baltimore. If that is indeed the case. Then there is every reason to think that both machine's in question #2337 & #2492 were built and sold in 1895. Sales would have undoubtedly increased during that year.

[Starkton]

Berliner himself in 1898 estimates he had sold 1000 machines and 25,000 records in the Fall of 1894 out of their showroom in Baltimore.

This was pure propaganda by Emile. It is not even certain that gramophone sales reached the number of 1000 until the end of 1895!

I cite Raymond Wile: "In January 1895, sales may have begun in Washington, even though we do not know of a retail outlet; there is no such listing in the annual City Directories." This is supported by an article in the Baltimore American of January 7, 1895: "It is said by Mr. Berliner that it [= the gramophone] will eventually be put on the market [...]." Even much later, following an article in the Boston Evening Transcript of September 28, 1895, it had barely gained a foothold: "The gramophone [...], invented by Dr. Berliner, the famous electrician, will soon be put upon the market."

There is this Berliner image. However, we can not make out if this machine has the holes or not....

Hannah Berliner could have told us ...

[gramophone78]

Berliner himself in 1898 estimates he had sold 1000 machines and 25,000 records in the Fall of 1894 out of their showroom in Baltimore.

This was pure propaganda by Emile. It is not even certain that gramophone sales reached the number of 1000 until the end of 1895!

I cite Raymond Wile: "In January 1895, sales may have begun in Washington, even though we do not know of a retail outlet; there is no such listing in the annual City Directories." This is supported by an article in the Baltimore American of January 7, 1895: "It is said by Mr. Berliner that it [= the gramophone] will eventually be put on the market [...]." Even much later, following an article in the Boston Evening Transcript of September 28, 1895, it had barely gained a foothold: "The gramophone [...], invented by Dr. Berliner, the famous electrician, will soon be put upon the market."

There is this Berliner image. However, we can not make out if this machine has the holes or not....

Hannah Berliner could have told us ...

"Propaganda"...... . Berliner was being deposed when he gave those "estimates". Mr. Wile also wrote that a "factory/showroom" was located in Baltimore and provides the exact address 109 N Charles St.. Source was a period Baltimore city directory. Thanks to Starkton's enlargement. We can now see clearly a groove on the top of the flywheel and the support casing is of the very early (1894) three piece design. Was this model then sold for $18???. In the May 16 1896 SA an ad showing a three hole designed hand wind for sale at $12 ???. Was the price reduced to $12 from $18 because of the new two piece design.....I wonder.
As Starkton added......there is no evidence to support Berliner had set up an outlet in DC at this early stage. There is no listing in the period directory.

BTW, if my memory serves me.....I believe the flyer showing Hannah at the machine is part of the early papers which also includes the earliest known record (plates) list dated November 1st 1894. Both in the hands of the LOC.

[Starkton]

"Propaganda"...... .

Please, do not ridicule my statement. Berliner could "estimate" what he wanted. Nobody could verify his claim. Only now we have the historical overview. For example, I have seen five times as much K&R 5" Berliner discs than hard rubber US 7" Berliners.

We can now see clearly a groove on the top of the flywheel and the support casing is of the very early (1894) three piece design. Was this model then sold for $18???.

Yes, this was the $18 machine marketed in 1895: "So devoid of complexity is its construction that the complete apparatus will cost only $18." (Boston Evening Transcript of September 28, 1895) On backside of this ad is a handwritten list of records, dated July 29, 1895: http://tinyurl.com/oj78v56

At this time, Berliner also projected a "smaller edition intended for the use of children", price $5.

[gramophone78]

"Propaganda"...... .

Please, do not ridicule my statement. Berliner could "estimate" what he wanted. Nobody could verify his claim. Only now we have the historical overview. For example, I have seen five times as much K&R 5" Berliner discs than hard rubber US 7" Berliners.

We can now see clearly a groove on the top of the flywheel and the support casing is of the very early (1894) three piece design. Was this model then sold for $18???.

Yes, this was the $18 machine marketed in 1895: "So devoid of complexity is its construction that the complete apparatus will cost only $18." (Boston Evening Transcript of September 28, 1895) On backside of this ad is a handwritten list of records, dated July 29, 1895: http://tinyurl.com/oj78v56

At this time, Berliner also projected a "smaller edition intended for the use of children", price $5.

I'm not ridiculing your statement. I just find hard to believe Berliner would propagandize an "estimate" under oath at a deposition. So, if I look at your theory....you are saying that the early three piece model (as shown with Hannah) was made in "mid" 1895. A machine that also has a solid cast flywheel. Even though there is evidence that a factory/showroom was in Baltimore in 1894 and a lists of "plates" was available for sale in Nov. 1 1894. And we know by May 16 1896 the design and price were changed.

Since the records themselves are being sold publicly in NOV 1894, one presumes that they are being "sold" to people who already have the hand wind gramophones around the same time. Berliner would be more than foolish to be advertising, month by month, records that have no corresponding players. Could he be selling gramophones with no records - i.e. before Nov 1894? So these things must have come together in the Autumn of 1894.

Then taking into account that at least two hand winds (there is a third with black & gold that belonged to Oliver Read and is in FTTS 1959).....all three with early solid cast flywheels and two piece construction and both with 2000 range serial numbers (Read's serial # is unknown) were made when?.....1896??.
Does this mean that Berliner sold over 2000+ machines of this type from the beginning of 1896 to May 16 1896 when the design was already changed??. Now to me.....it does not add up.

So, I have to ask (in your opinion) how many of this type of hand wind were made from 1894-96 and by whom ?.
Also, was the quote you posted taken from the (Boston Evening Transcript of September 28, 1895) from and ad or an article??.

I myself would not say for certainty that the flyer showing Hannah is from 1895 because a "hand written" list is on the back. That would be an assumption. If it were printed.....well then I could believe it. The fact is, the writing could have been added at anytime after the flyer was printed.
However, as I stated in the beginning of my thread. These opinions and observations are merely my own and I can always be wrong..... .