chemically shaving an edison cylinder

[THEVICTROLAGUY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... QwkTwzuoxs

[mf77]

You can also use gasoline or turpentine. I think kerosene even works.

[Lucius1958]

I believe that black wax, besides being noisier, tends to wear shaver blades and recording styli far more than brown wax…

But using the chemical method on brown wax might be an excellent way of getting the coarse shaving done; after which a couple of very light passes with a shaver could do the final job.

Alternatively, could it be possible to burnish the blank surface after the treatment, using a highly polished, rounded glass or metal burnisher, to render the surface perfectly smooth? One could place the blank on the mandrel, and go over the surface lightly while it is turning…

Just a thought.

Bill

[VintageTechnologies]

I think anyone who wants to make a serious attempt at recording should buy an old Dictaphone shaver instead of using solvents. I've tried both methods and shaving yields a much quieter recording surface.

[Chuck]

Well, as the old saying goes, "Your mileage
may vary".

My grandfather told me that he used
a kerosene-soaked rag to smooth off his one
Edison brown wax blank to erase old stuff
before trying to record new stuff.

He also cussed when he saw his old Edison
Standard machine again, gotten down from
the shop attic after being up there for some
30+ years.

He said: "That %$#&* thing never did work right!"

Of course it didn't.

He never shaved his blank.

And, Gold Moulded black wax was never meant to
be cut with a recorder cutting stylus. It has
hardeners in it that make it tough and resilient so as to stand up to many playings.
Gold Moulded wax was designed specifically to
be used in the making of moulded records.

It is also fairly abrasive.

That stuff will dull up a recorder cutter and
a shaver cutter in about two shakes of a lamb's
tail!

Chuck

[mf77]

Chuck,

Is it known what the formula difference was between Gold Moulded cylinders, and Edison's black wax 4M recording blanks?
They appear (to me) to be virtually the same substance. although the original 4M blanks have had 100yrs to harden, that is if there was some difference in the formula that allows these 4M blanks to dramatically change over time.

[edisonphonoworks]

It seems the first four minute blanks were a combination of brown wax and recycled gold moulded wax, with a spiral core, it still had to cut, yet be somewhat durable. I have made black four minute blanks and they had all the properties the orange cased Four Minute blanks . There was also a late black wax blank with an impressed Edison Blank around the rim with ribbed core, and it seemed to be a little harder than the spiral core four minute blank. The ONLY reference to a formula for the Amberol records is a list of ingredients, but no percentages. Could it be?? It is the ONLY formula I have found on the late wax Amberol and late Gold MOulded formula. Published by Lynn Bilton. http://www.intertique.com/OriginOfRecords.htm

Asphalt
Lead Sterate
Resin gum
Litharge


Edison Gold Moulded 1901-early 1904... Brown wax base of aluminum sodium stearate and ceresin wax, with the addition of lamp black and carnauba wax 12.5%. (the Carnauba wax will add a lot of durability to a record, hardening it up quite a bit.) 1904-1907 Brown wax aluminum stearate base, with zinc, and copper stearate added, carnauba, pine tar and ceresin. Alternative formula for Gold Moulded records Aluminum, zinc and copper stearate, lampblack, and ebonite and ceresin, and lampblack, but NO carnauba in this formula.

[Chuck]

MF77:

That's a very good question you asked, and I am
not sure of the answer. But I suspect that
the Gold Moulded formula and the black wax 4 min
blanks are different.

I say this because the Gold Moulded records
were cast with grooves in them and never were
meant to have a recorder cutter touch them.
All they need to do is stay shiny and smooth
and stand up to many, many playings.

The 4 min blanks, on the other hand, do need
to be cut with a recorder cutter.

I would say there are probably some similarities in these two formulas, but I'd be
rather surprised if they are identical.

We really need to hire up an analytical
chemical laboratory and have samples of
all of these various formulas run through
gas-chromatography process to determine contents and proportions thereof.

We will not know solid answers to these questions until this is done.

As far as digging back into the history and
mining all available data from any and all
sources, Shawn Borri has done more and
continues to do more of this than about anyone
else whom I know of.

There is a lot of data to sift through, much
of it contradictory and always with some
amount of added confusion. Those guys back then protected their formulas, and they threw
out lots of dis-information to throw off
potential competitors.

I dare say that Edison himself probably told
his chemists to say anything to the attorneys
at the court hearings, but not to divulge
the real workings of what they were actually
doing in production. This is pure speculation
on my part, but it does explain some of the
contradictory info. It also stands to reason that Edison wanted simply to win these patent infringement cases. I can just hear Edison
telling his guys to: "Say anything in court,
but just win the case", and "Don't tell them
our secrets"

Take that bit of speculation for what it's
worth.

Chuck

[edisonphonoworks]

It has all been a matter of hunting for the information, and yes there is many contradictions, and still many missing puzzle pieces. The hard thing about making the cylinders, is not just the formula, but how to combine the ingredients, and at what temperatures. It has taken over 13,000 experiments to get to where I am now and reading hundreds of pages of documents. Not just finding ingredients but finding out how they were in the time of the cylinder record. Those components are not exactly the same now, ceresine is synthetic now. In 1908 It was a wax from the earth, ozokerite wax mined in Boryslaw Wolanka, and Truskawiec and Stanislau. It was in vanes, of various colors, and it had to be heated to separate from the rock, and floated up, and skimmed, it then was treated with acid, and run through bone black filters, and other filter presses. I will say Chuck is a much better note taker than me, and his data is very good, He can replicate the same blank over and over, this is a good thing. And again I think every one who records should use examples of Richards,Morris or Borri blanks, keep them all on hand each has good qualities We three are friendly competition, However I would consider Chuck Richards and Paul Morris as very good friends first and foremost. I am not here to sell cylinders, really, I actually would be happy to use them for my own recording work, but if people like them, then that is great too. I started making cylinders just for the sole purpose of my curiosity.