Please assist with the identification of motor No. 169

[Ivor-Duncombe]

I sorted all of the individual parts for this motor out of a volume of about 3 cubic metres of stripped gramophone motor parts that I bought from a collector 30 years ago. Nothing in the collection was sorted or assembled.

I spread parts out in batches on a "sorting table" (old table tennis table) in an outside shed and I would spend spare time at home walking around the table collecting parts, (spring drums, springs, gears, shafts, screws and motor frames motor frames) that went together - or appeared to go together, and putting the sets into zip-lock bags. These bags were sorted onto shelves where I could locate them easily to add parts. As the top of the table emptied, I would load another box full of loose parts which I spread out for inspection and trial fitting. I have a number of identified and unidentified motors that are incomplete and even more that are complete and running. It took about 3 years for me to finally gather all of the parts of the motor shown here - but amazingly all of the parts, right down to tiny machine screws, were to be found.

I've learnt the hard way that it's neither wise nor cost-effective (apart from being inherently destructive)to strip gramophone motors and cabinets for stored spares. It's also highly unwise to purchase unsorted stripped gramophone parts. The parts are more trouble than they are worth if they are not sorted. Thankfully my time was not wasted - just used very inefficiently.

I hope that many of us will benefit from the responses to this posting, and my thanks in advance to all who are able and willing to contribute.

[De Soto Frank]

Kind of looks like a Heinemann motor... but those are usually marked...

[gramophone-georg]

It's possibly out of a "Cecilian" (Montgomery Ward) console that had one of those mile- long cranks as it had record storage on each side. I spent forever sourcing a spring for one of these years ago. I think it's a Heinemann variant, and this was likely used in other machines like Silvertones as well.

[mf77]

It appears to be a copy based on the Garrard no.1 spring motor. the first gramophone motor produced by the company in 1919.
Thorens of Switzerland also produced copies of the No.1, and these can be found bearing the Thorens name & trademark, as well as branded with other off brand names like Aeolian, and usually these are also marked "Swiss Made".
The main difference I can see on your motor is the bottom plate which appears to be cast iron, where as the Garrard & copies I've seen before all use a sheet steel plate on the bottom of the motor.

While your motor may well be an American copy of the Garrard No.1, the nickel plated gears etc, and the coarse teeth on the winding gear above the top spring barrel suggest to me that your motor was made by Paillard.

[Uncle Vanya]

Well, the Otto Heineman Phonograph Supply Company was offering imported motors of this pattern in 1914, and began production of motors of this pattern in Elyria Oh no later than 1916, so I would hardly call it a copy of the Garrard product.

As I understand it, Garrard began their talking machine motor business by copying a few Lindstrom designed motors as a replacement for the no longer available products which formerly came from the. German Empire. Later on they developed their own innovative designs.

[Ivor-Duncombe]

Good day to you all, De Soto Frank, gramophone-georg, mf77 and Uncle Vanya,

Thank you for your responses. These will help a lot. Now at least I have a few names to start with, as well as some idea of applications of the design - this where I had nothing to go on before. Your assistance is most appreciated - I'll provide feedback as I continue my search. for the original gramophone(s).

[De Soto Frank]

Ivor-Duncombe,

Just out of curiosity, what part of the world are you located in ?

Re-reading your original post, I began to wonder if you are in the British Isles, our perhaps on the Continent, which then would suggest that your motor is of European origins ?


Regards,

De Soto Frank

[mf77]

Well, the Otto Heineman Phonograph Supply Company was offering imported motors of this pattern in 1914, and began production of motors of this pattern in Elyria Oh no later than 1916, so I would hardly call it a copy of the Garrard product.

As I understand it, Garrard began their talking machine motor business by copying a few Lindstrom designed motors as a replacement for the no longer available products which formerly came from the. German Empire. Later on they developed their own innovative designs.

Interesting. As I understand it, the Garrard No.1 was designed by Mr. H.V.Slade, who was an engineer & became general manager of the company.
Perhaps his design was a re-design of these earlier motors?

[Uncle Vanya]

Well, the Otto Heineman Phonograph Supply Company was offering imported motors of this pattern in 1914, and began production of motors of this pattern in Elyria Oh no later than 1916, so I would hardly call it a copy of the Garrard product.

As I understand it, Garrard began their talking machine motor business by copying a few Lindstrom designed motors as a replacement for the no longer available products which formerly came from the. German Empire. Later on they developed their own innovative designs.

Interesting. As I understand it, the Garrard No.1 was designed by Mr. H.V.Slade, who was an engineer & became general manager of the company.
Perhaps his design was a re-design of these earlier motors?

Heineman No. 33 "Special", in production at the Elyria Oh General Industries works since 1916, copied from an earlier European model sold through the Lindstrom syndicate:


As far as I can see the early Garrard motor is a line copy. Now, that said, engineering the quantity production system of a device such as this is more difficult than designing the motor in itself. Remember, too that history is written by the winners, and Garrard survived these other firms by some years.

[Victrolacollector]

This appears to be a Heineman motor. There is a larger motor out there and I had a very difficult time in getting mainsprings.