Pricing Victrolas.. how on earth do you actually know?!?

[LadyHawke]

Hi, ALL!!
I know condition and originality, record albums mean everything!
However, when looking at at my LOOK FOR THE DOG, VICTOR TALKING MACHINES, PRICING BOOK, by Baumbach, the latest edition was 2005. Even though there is a sliding scale, it's 9 almost 10 years old.
He prices machines low to high, and some rare machines are off the chart index. so, my question is, is this book, at 9 years old, accurately reflecting the market today? I really don't know. I know a buyers market influences all auctions, demands, prices etc.
I guess I just want to know if the ranges are still the same, 9 years older, which means the values have held, but not increased.
How do you price your machines for insurance or for selling??
thanks so much!
LH

[gramophone78]

The best way is to look at recent auction and Ebay sales and go from there. The bottom line regarding "price/worth" with any sale is whatever the buyer and seller are happy with at the end. Almost all books with "values" will state that "their" prices are merely a "guide" and many factors have to be considered when looking at it.

[marcapra]

Machines selling for a high price on an auction such as Ebay need to have at least two bidders who want it enough to pay a high price. I've noticed that sellers who put their machines on Ebay for a high price to start with usually don't get any bids. And then there is the problem of shipping. If your machine weighs less than 100 lbs. Greyhound is an option. I wouldn't send a phonograph with UPS, USPS, or Fedex. They throw their packages off the back end of big trucks several times before its destination. I know this from personal experience. Because of this fact, most sellers of floor models sell for local pick up only, which further reduces the price.

[FloridaClay]

Generally speaking, IMHO the LFTD prices are on the high side, mostly because a deep recession happened after it was published. Like many other collectibles, the prices of phonographs plunged as a result. It seems to me that prices are recovering somewhat now, but not yet back to what they were.

Doing a search for completed sales of a similar machine on eBay are about as good as you can get, albeit not a perfect guide (nothing is!!). It is a huge market and the market price, as always, is what a willing seller is willing to take and a willing buyer is willing to pay in an open market and eBay is mostly where that happens now.

Of course it goes without saying that this is just a ballpark starting place. Adjustments need to be made, up or down, for condition and originality, and outliers need to be eliminated. There will always be weird cases where a particular sale was abnormally low or high. They don't mean much. And location has to be considered too, especially with large machines. One in the middle of nowhere that would cost a mint to ship (assuming the seller is willing to ship it -- many won't) is not going to generally bring as much as one located in a major market area with lots of potential buyers within driving range.

And when checking past prices on eBay, beware of considering prices that show up in red. Generally it means, as I understand it, that the item did not sell. There are a lot of those as some sellers, especially novices, list opening prices that are nothing but wishful thinking.

Clay

[De Soto Frank]

Good replies so far... I'll add my two-cents worth....


For insurance valuation ( assuming total loss due to theft or catastrophic loss ), I would go with the valuations in Look for the Dog...


For purposes of buying / selling, the market is really fickle...


I don't know if your question applies strictly to Victor products, but I think my following comments can be applied to most marques.

1) Condition of a given machine probably affects value as much as the brand / type. A pristine original always has greater value than an example that was consigned to a damp basement or chicken coop with a bad roof.

2) Build quality affects value - most collectors want these things to function. Machines such as Victor, Edison, Brunswick, Sonora, and most Columbia Disc machines had good to excellent engineering and build quality... other machines, especially "assembled", "client" machines may not have had good engineering and / or components ( think "lots of crumbling pot-metal" ).

3) Cabinet design - was/is the machine aesthetically pleasing ? ( Focusing on design more than condition: if it wasn't an attractive design, it will still be "ugly" even if pristine...)

3a) Finish - an uncommon finish can help increase a machine's value; but this is also linked to condition: a red mahogany "piano finish" in pristine condition will ( should be ) worth more than the usual crazed / alligatored examples... while a common finish, it is very labor-intensive to properly re-create. Finishes like fumed or Flemish Oak, Circassian walnut, "Chinese Chippendale", etc. can make an otherwise common / ordinary machine more interesting / valuable. Again, condition is critical... you might have a tough time getting a "fair price" for a Vernis Martin Victrola in poor cosmetic condition.

4) Unusual / interesting features - are there innovative, or just plain wacky mechanical other design features that make the machine interesting ?

5) Size of machine - storage & display space is (nearly) always a consideration, plus transporting the machine. These can influence buying / selling price, but should have little effect on insurance valuation.

6) Production numbers - How many were made ? A really common machine such as a Victrola XI, where over 800,000 were made over a ten-year run, is probably not worth as much as, say, a Flat-top Pooley VTLA, or maybe a Victrola XII (table model with the really short doors), even though the XI is probably a better-performing machine than the other two. Again, condition and veneer / finish type figure in this.

7) Early and External Horn machines - these are more difficult to put pricing on, due to rarity and infrequency in the marketplace. Really early examples, such as anything marked "Berliner" or "North American Phonograph Company" is rare and pricey; more common external horn machines (as long as complete and restorable) seem to easily run in the four-figure range. Vertical-wind Johnson / Berliner machines, "tin-can" lever-wind machines, etc. are quite rare and prized among collectors.

"Odd-spindle" machines, such as "Standard", "United", and "Aretino", even though external-horn, can be tricky, as these machines will play only their proprietary records (or those with a larger spindle hole, using an adapter.) The Aretino, with its 3-inch spindle, is more a museum-piece than a user-talking machine. This can have an adverse effect on their price.

All that said, in my experience here in Northeast Pennsylvania, working with about a 250 mile radius, here's my basic pricing guide-lines for average talking machines:

Victrola, Columbia, Edison Diamond Disc-

Table-model w/o lid - $250 and less
Table-model w/ lid - $350 and less
Upright (skinny) floor model- $400 and less
Console ("low-boy")- $250 and less
Orthophonic small (4- series) - $400 and less
Orthophonic medium (8-12, etc.) - $750 and less
Orthophonic large (Credenza / 8-30) - $1,000 and less
Orhtophonic Changer machines - ????

These prices assume machine is complete and functional, and in good condition, needing only cleaning and lubrication, and probably reproducer rebuild to replace fossilized rubber to be completely presentable and functional. No broken / crumbling / frozen / missing hardware, no loose / missing veneer, no flower-pot stains, no dog-chewing on legs, etc.

It's hard to offer hard & fast pricing on such a wide variety of machines... so much depends on individual buyers' tastes and how much mad-money they have at a given moment.

The numbers I threw-out above are a run-up of what I have purchased / seen in person and on Craigs-list and e-bay over the last several years. I HAVE seen machines in the above categories priced MUCH higher; I doubt they have sold though...

I do not mean to demean anyone's "pet machine" or suggest that the above are "fair" prices. Just what I have personally encountered in NE/SE PA, Western NJ, Southern and Central NY state.

Boy - that's a lot of "gas" for two-cents...

[FloridaClay]

All good points Frank.

Clay

[ejackett]

Being new to this forum and having bought 8 victrola's over the past year and a half, I half to agree with Frank on most everything
he listed. I thank him for listing them for all of us to consider when buying or selling, especially us newbies. For our sakes I
certainly hope the market kicks up alot more and soon. Thanks again Frank!
Gene

[Nat]

VV-XIII nailed it right at the start. When I began collecting, I had no idea of value (actually, when I started, in the 60's, victrolas were CHEAP! Ah, the good old days!) But watching and bidding on eBay are the best education

The rule I work with is a Victrola or a record is worth what I'm willing to pay for it. sometimes I want a given record so much that I bid some ridiculous sum but that's the value I put on it.

The other rule-of-thumb is that no matter what you pay for it, another one will pop up a week later at about half the price... (And probably in better shape!)

[ejackett]

Boy do I know that feeling Nat
gene

[52089]

One other factor involves who's selling it, and to a lesser degree, who's buying it. You'll pay the most from a "gallery" dealer, whose clientele is primarily interested in finding "just the right thing" for a room in their house, even if they don't really collect or even have any particular interest in phonographs. The next rung down would be the regular antiques stores, who need to make enough profit to pay for rent, utilities, etc. and still have something left over to buy food and gas. After that would be the part-time dealers (who have lower overhead), then the collector-to-collector deals.

Craigslist and ebay are not in the above list because their prices are all over the place. Both have a combination of all of the above, plus sellers with unrealistic expectations and sellers with a complete lack of knowledge. Ebay also has buyers who will pay anything for an item they need, and this skews prices as well.

I personally think the question, "What is it worth?" should be interpreted as "What would a knowledgeable collector expect to pay a knowledgeable seller in a private (person-to-person) transaction?". Even then, you still have to give a range because of all the factors discussed previously.