What sounds better in your opinion.

[GrafonolaG50]

Which produces a better sound? If you wish you can add a reason why you chose what you chose.

[Wolfe]

Viva-Tonal. More rounded, properly "equalized" and balanced sound.

The Victor Orthophonic sound is impressive at first, but then becomes wearying.

[larryh]

I agree. I had both the 810 Columbia and the Credenza Victor.. While they were close I didn't find the Victor to be superior to the Columbia which as mentioned had a somewhat more full tonal quality to my ear. The columbia records may have helped that since they often tend to have a fuller rounded tone that some sort of hard victor recordings of the period. I liked the fact that the columbia was totally user friendly as far as the reproducer was concerned.. It was a simple matter to replace the gasket and restore it to prime sound..

Larry

[FloridaClay]

GrafonolaG50, unfortunately the survey mechanism has not worked here for a long time now. Wish it did as it would be very useful.

I am going to take the opposite tack from the responses so far, based strictly on my experience with the 2 machines I have, both in very good condition with serviced reproducers, etc.--a VivaTonal 710 and a Credenza. I like both machines, but there is no question that the Credenza has a much better range, especially in the base end. Admittedly I might change my mind if I heard the larger VivaTonal 800 series, but I have not had that experience.

Clay

Adding a postscript. There is also a very noticeable difference in volume between my 2 machines. I have to use a mid-tone needle to get satisfactory volume on the 710 whereas the Credenza does fine on a soft tone. (Both are located in the same room.)

[larryh]

Yes comparing smaller machines with the 800 series would not be comparable. The 800 machines are quite impressive in size and considerably larger than the credenza in cabinet and weight. I found it to be a bit directional which is why I finally kept the Credenza and sold the Columbia to a good friend who still has it. It may be like a lot of things in collecting, what one person finds to be satisfying another might not. I do recall an article I found at one point from the period and it was talking about how critics of the sound had favored the Columbia design.. Where I found that I haven't a clue but at the time when I owned the 810 it was of interest.

[Joe_DS]

The only relevant comparison I've heard was between the mid-size 710--or 720; forget which one--and the VV-4-40. Both had been restored by the owner, and the tone chambers made as airtight as possible. (They were originally priced about the same back in the 1920s.) To my ears, the 4-40 was the clear winner with a much stronger mid-range, more bass, and more forceful sound quality--overall, but especially in the lower range. I could detect a hint of bass from the Viva-Tonal phonograph, but it seemed to be farther back in the horn, as if it wasn't reaching the horn's mouth. (Hard to explain what I mean.)

Unfortunately, there are very few YouTube videos featuring the 700-series models. A search for Viva-Tonal (Viva Tonal and Vivatonal) brings up mostly videos of portable models in various states of disrepair.

Joe

[Uncle Vanya]

The VV 4-40 is not really the equivilent of the Viva-Tonal 710. The Victrola Granada would be a more apt comparison, in which case the Grafonola would, if properly restored, blow the Granada out of the room. If the bass produced by a Viva-Tonal Grafonola seems a bit thin when compared to a similarly priced Orthophonic machine one might well consider replacing the red rubber isolating gasket with a new unit made of silicone rubber. When the point of attachment of the reproducer to the tone arm has sufficient compliance the bass produce by these machine can be impressive.

[MicaMonster]

Everyone here knows that I'm 100% "Edison," but in a toss up between the Viva Tonal and the Orthophonic system, my answer comes down to ADJUSTMENT and MATERIALS. The Viva Tonal reproducers rarely need ANY adjustment and the great majority of them that I have worked on still have supple rubber gasketing. They are equalized to have strong midrange and treble tones, and the material the records were pressed from is just downright silky smooth and amazing. The Viva Tonal machines sound good "out of the attic." On the simple note that they aren't as delicate as the Orthophonic units.

The Orthophonic Victrola is a "dark prince." My preference is one that has a 100% METAL exponential horn, a pot metal reproducer, and waxed fiber diaphragm gaskets. Rubber gaskets will work, but reduce sensitivity notably. Make those gaskets from greeting card stock and wipe them with melted beeswax and a hairdryer.

The Orthophonic system is terribly sensitive to diaphragm and needlebar adjustments. The hardness of the mounting flange is the #1 reason why they sound so strident, even when in adjustment. It is all basic geometry and physics.....no need to make it more than what it really is.

Orthophonics come in all budget sizes, and this matters. But the science of sound demands a proper exponential horn, with NO WOOD.

As a stand-alone, non-changer, the 8-35 holds my highest score for best sounding machine between the two. The bass notes are strong and well footed, the midranges divine, and the treble twinkling but not overbearing. I can easily miss a lunch date or appointment, when left with an 8-35.

Now, if you wanna hear an instrumental soloist sound as if they are standing directly in front of you, we can talk about an Edisonic Beethoven or Shubert........but that is a completely different discussion!!!!!!!

-Wyatt (aka, Mr. Pedantic)

[Joe_DS]

The VV 4-40 is not really the equivalent of the Viva-Tonal 710. The Victrola Granada would be a more apt comparison, in which case the Grafonola would, if properly restored, blow the Granada out of the room. If the bass produced by a Viva-Tonal Grafonola seems a bit thin when compared to a similarly priced Orthophonic machine one might well consider replacing the red rubber isolating gasket with a new unit made of silicone rubber. When the point of attachment of the reproducer to the tone arm has sufficient compliance the bass produce by these machine can be impressive.

Many thanks. That's very interesting. I was always under the impression that the 4-40 took the place of the Granada (4-3) in the Victor lineup. I know that the mouth size of the 4-40's horn is closer to that of the 710, while the Granada's is about half the overall size--both the ones equipped with the non-folded horns, and the later models fitted with the small folded horns.

I'd imagine, in addition to overhauling the sound box, the Viva-Tonal horn, itself, probably requires the same care most Ortho-philes take with their machines in terms of checking for seam gaps, sealing, etc. I've listened to a few anemic sounding 700 series models over the years, and have wondered about this.

Joe

[larryh]

Wyatt,

That is precisely why I ended up selling my Credenza.. When I had it an the Chippendale edison in the living room it be came very apparent that when listening from an adjoining open room that the Edison sounded much smoother and much more like the real instruments were playing than the Credenza.. I have never heard the Schubert or Beethoven but this weekend I will be visiting a group member who has one as well as my latest diaphragm design.. I am looking forward to hearing what kind of difference there is between the 250 horn and the latter version.. I also agree with Uncle that the columbia is a very smooth sounding machine when things are in decent shape, and like your comment, often they do very well right from the start.

Larry