Change one or both springs??? Victor double-spring

[snallast]

I've aired this question on the european section of the forum, and people have different opinions and experiences. Since this motor, a HMV 32 seems identical to the the double-spring Victor motor, the one made after 1918 (maybe they were all made in the US I do not know)it would be ok to put the question here on the american forum too?? Maybe there are more of you out there with experience?

One spring broke (I wound the motor too tight and had never taken the springs out and cleaned them) and now I've cleaned everything but the question is: should I change both springs or can I keep using the one that's still OK, it's now clean and will be regreased if I do. What do you think??

Grateful for input!! Pics are of the motor in question and the dog that I found at the "meeting of the springs".

[CarlosV]

As Steve suggested in response to your question, I recommend you change both springs. Reason is relatively simple: the spring failure mode - assuming that it is free of defects or corrosion - is fatigue, which is the accumulation of full winding-unwinding cycles. As the spring is used, its stiffness reduces, so when you combine a new with an old spring, the higher stiffness of the new spring will drive the old one to work harder, i.e., reach the end of its travel before the new one, and consequently accelerate the fatigue on the old spring. I experienced this when I replaced a broken spring of an Opera phonograph(the toughest spring I ever replaced) and left the other one in place, less to save money than to avoid the work on another of these springs, only to have to replace that one in a couple of months after a (very) loud bang followed by a whirling unwind of the crank.

[phonojim]

Whether or not you replace your unbroken spring is a judgement call. It's perfectly O. K. to do so, but not always necessary in my opinion. Before you decide what to do, carefully examine that spring to make sure there are no visible defects which may cause trouble soon. If you see anything that doesn't look right, replace the spring.
Here is an experience I had with one spring breaking in a multi spring motor. About 15 years ago, my Triumph D had one of its springs break - a clean break in the middle of the coil of the center spring. I replaced only the broken spring with a new one from Ron Sitko. At the time I did not even remove the 2 unbroken springs, just greased them as well as I could. Ten plus years later, I cleaned and relubed the complete motor, including removal, cleaning, lubrication and re-installation of all three springs. So far I have had no further spring trouble, and it is used often. The machine, when fully wound will play over 12 2 minute cylinders. I have spent uncountable hours on this Triumph in order to get it adjusted to the point where I am happy with it. It runs flutter - free with excellent speed regulation. I can finally enjoy my cylinders without constantly fussing with the machine.
I know this is rather long-winded but I hope it helps.

Jim

[JerryVan]

New springs tend to have substantially more "power" to them than the old ones. I find that changing only one will cause the old one to wind first, nearly to the end, before the new one begins to wind at all, or winds only very little. This puts undue stress on the older spring. You'll get a better "balance" by using 2 new springs.

All that being said, I haven't needed to install a new spring in years. If it's broken at the outer end, I simply reshape the end, anneal the steel & drill/file a new pear shaped hole & put it back in the barrel.

[snallast]

My spring broke at the outer end... I looked up annealing (the word) and being a sculptor I know a little about metals, though least about the kind of steel used in springs... say, how do you go about annealing the end of the spring? My springs have no holes - they are 1923-24 motor springs and have a bend or whatever you might call it, to fasten it to the barrel. do you shape them first and then heat or some other way?

I've seen springs fixed as a kid / a blacksmith just pulled the spring out, cut it and drilled a new hole in it / put it back in the motor, which was fine afterwards *about 1964*

[phonojim]

If you have an outer end break, I would definitely advise you to save the spring. The procedure for this is not difficult and is discussed in detail in The Compleat Talking Machine by Eric Reiss. I have tried to repair a couple of center and mid breaks with no success, so in those cases I simply call Ron Sitko and order new springs.

Jim

[wjw]

Grateful for input!! Pics are of the motor in question and the dog that I found at the "meeting of the springs".

Where is that cool embossed logo? Surely not on the spring?

[phonojim]

It is... shows that it is a genuine Victor spring. That dog was everywhere!

Jim

[JerryVan]

My spring broke at the outer end... I looked up annealing (the word) and being a sculptor I know a little about metals, though least about the kind of steel used in springs... say, how do you go about annealing the end of the spring? My springs have no holes - they are 1923-24 motor springs and have a bend or whatever you might call it, to fasten it to the barrel. do you shape them first and then heat or some other way?

I've seen springs fixed as a kid / a blacksmith just pulled the spring out, cut it and drilled a new hole in it / put it back in the motor, which was fine afterwards *about 1964*

The annealing part is easy. Heat the spring to red hot for about 1-½" - 2" back from your reshaped end and just allow it to cool. Do not quench it in water or oil. It will now still be tough, but soft enough to drill & file the pear shaped hole, or in your case, form the hooked end. It should then be ready to use.