C250/C19 Database project

[phonogfp]

Fran, You are also forgetting three major things..

1. Diamond Disc Dataplates (as well as Amberola dataplates) went from Aluminum with Black painted background (1913-1917) to All Brass Dataplates with White paint then later Black paint (1918-1929).

2. 1926 thru 1927 C-19 machines also came with 10" and 12" buttons that were present but disconnected from the factory ( for Extra Long Play (ELP) feature when installed also with a special "Dance" reproducer for longer 12" records, and turntable felt cloth was also changed to Orange from the previous and former Green this year also.

3. 1927 C-19's (last year made) machines had NO Speed control in the upper left corner of the turntable. Remaining inventory of C-19's were sold until 1929 when Edison closed.

Do not forget to add these things into your data.

)

Tony K.

Tony,

Your observations interest me.

1. You cite the aluminum/black painted data plates as being used from 1913-1917. This suggests the last two years' production of C-250s (manufactured until 1919) were equipped with the later data plate. I have not encountered a C-250 with the later data plate, and I would be grateful to learn of one. A photo would be most appreciated for my files. I'm always glad to learn more about these machines.

2). You mention the "10" and 12" buttons that were present but disconnected from the factory ( for Extra Long Play (ELP) feature when installed also with a special "Dance" reproducer for longer 12" records..." The 10"/12" record starting buttons were supplied on several models of the Edison Disc Phonograph as early as 1924 if I remember right; some with single mainsprings. These were not intended exclusively for use with Long Playing records, but with a planned (but never released) line of 12" 150 tpi Edison Discs. I'm familiar with the Dance Reproducer, but I have not encountered information on the "...special "Dance" reproducer for longer 12" records." I think you must mean the Long Play Reproducer, but it was designed for either 10" or 12" 450 tpi Edison 20-Minute or 40-Minute (respectively) Discs. Finally, I'm guessing that the "Extra Long Play (ELP) feature" you mentioned was the Long Play (LP) attachment.

3. The lack of a speed control above the bedplate (I'm sure you didn't really mean "turntable") can be easily ascertained when a very late serial number is reported, simply by checking back with the respondent. This variation is fairly scarce, so it will require little effort.

Fran had a choice when developing his questionnaire: to keep it simple enough to encourage owners to respond while covering major points, or to address every possible variation such as cabinet factory number, wood type, finish type, turntable felt color, type of data plate, presence of a speed control above the bedplate, etc. I think Fran struck a nice balance and covered all the important production changes while avoiding owner-added options (such as finding an Edisonic Reproducer on a C-250, which contributes nothing to the historical database). I applaud him for his efforts!

I also applaud all the respondents for contributing their data. Tony, I hope we will soon see your data on the C-250 and C-19 you mentioned some time ago on a different thread.

George P.

[NEFaurora]

"Do you have an accredited source for your observations that you would be willing to share with me?"

Yes.

Myself. lol..

Most of the stuff I mentioned is also in Frow's Diamond Disc book as well. Pick up a copy if you don't have one. All of Frow's books are "Must Get"..though even Frow made a few mistakes as well, Most of his data is accurate. I have all of Frow's books.

George, As you requested... I've seen quite a few of these Later C-250 dataplates..They are considered "Transitional" C-250's as some of the very last batches C250's came with slots instead of drawers before it was re-named to the C-19 name. They are seldom seen, but are out there..I've come across 4 of these type machines in the last 3 years believe it or not.. See the weblink for the pic below. I have pics of others like this..I will have to dig them out.. for those that have never seen one.

I am having trouble posting pics to the message board now as it says I am limited to 800 pixels??? How do I get around this? That's why I included the direct weblink below. If someone knows how to add the picture now, Please add it to this thread.


I am not aware of the 10", 12" buttons appearing on the C-19 before 1926... Maybe on other Edison models, but not the C-19 that I am aware of. George P. , Thank you for correcting me on the reproducer, as I mis-spoke. Yes, The 10", 12" buttons were for the Special "LONG PLAY" reproducer ONLY. The "Dance" reproducer was a completely different reproducer all together. The "Dance" reproducer was of higher quality and heavier than a standard reproducer, and I think that even special records were sold for them as well, though they could be used with regular records.

LOL...George, I usually associate "Bedplate" with Edison Cylinder machines ... When I look at a Diamond Disc Machine, My brain says Turntable...lol....

)

Tony K.



http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj91 ... nModel.jpg

[phonogfp]

Thanks for the photo of the late C-250 data plate! It's the second one I've seen today...my friend Fran showed me a photo of one that was on eBay recently. So after 46 years of collecting, today I saw my first two!

But as to your assertion that the earlier aluminum & black data plates were phased out in 1917, that would suggest that the data plate you pictured was in production for two years (1917-1919). Given the relative scarcity of this late C-250 data plate, that seems unlikely. Where did you get these dates? I have not seen them in Frow, but perhaps I missed them. A page number would be great.

"They are considered "Transitional" C-250's as some of the very last batches C250's came with slots instead of drawers before it was re-named to the C-19 name."

I've seen C-19s with drawers and of course with shelves, but I've never seen a C-250 with shelves. I got lucky today with the data plate, so I'll press my luck... Can someone verify a C-250 with shelves instead of drawers for me? A photo is always appreciated.

"Yes, The 10", 12" buttons were for the Special "LONG PLAY" reproducer ONLY."

No, they weren't. A friend of mine has a BC-34 with the 10" & 12" buttons and there's no Long Play apparatus on the machine. I'm sure other members of this board have Edison Disc Phonographs with these start button but without the LP equipment.

Thanks for putting up with my nit-picking. I hate to see inaccuracies put into print, and I'd dislike it even more if I'm the one doing it!

George P.

[NEFaurora]

"Yes, The 10", 12" buttons were for the Special "LONG PLAY" reproducer ONLY."

No, they weren't. A friend of mine has a BC-34 with the 10" & 12" buttons and there's no Long Play apparatus on the machine.



Yes it is, and I'll tell you why.. There is a very simple explanation. Surprised you haven't heard of this..

The reason that there is no Long Play apparatus on the machine is because Edison shipped the machines NEW to Jobbers that way. It was left up to the Edison jobbers to install the Long Play apparatus to the 10", 12" buttons and Long Play reproducer and holder if the customer wanted to pay extra money for the option. Edison just found it easier to install the 10" and 12" buttons for the jobbers on the machines and ship them that way even though they went to absolutely nothing... That is all.


On many late Diamond Disc Machines, The 10", 12" buttons were present, but not hooked up to anything when shipped NEW. This has been verified many times by many different collectors over the years. I also have one of these machines. The 12" Long Play option could be installed at a later date by jobbers if the purchaser of the machine wished to order the separate Long Play Reproducer and mechanics option upgrade at a later date. It could also have been upgraded at the time of sale if the selling jobber "convinced" the new buyer of their C-19 that they really "needed" the "Long Play" option...which would have been an extra sale for the selling jobber...otherwise, the NEW C-19 went home with its new owner with 10" and 12" buttons that did absolutely nothing leaving the new owner curious as to what they were used for. The "curiosity" factor of the buttons was probably also used a side gimmick as well causing owners of their new Diamond Disc Players to contact their selling jobbers to see what they did and to find out they were all about..

)

Tony K.

[Lucius1958]

As for the presence of 10/12" buttons:

I have a fairly early BC-34, (with the #100 horn) which has the 10/12" buttons. It also has a single spring motor.

As far as I can tell from my reading of Frow, there was a revived interest in the 12" discs about 1922, and apparently the Company started fitting the buttons to their phonographs in anticipation of their release. Unfortunately this project never came to fruition…

It is possible that some C-19s were equipped with the buttons at the same time….

As for the buttons being 'not hooked up', do you mean that there is no corresponding attachment on the horn?

Bill

[phonogfp]

The reason that there is no Long Play apparatus on the machine is because Edison shipped the machines NEW to Jobbers that way. It was left up to the Edison jobbers to install the Long Play apparatus to the 10", 12" buttons and Long Play reproducer and holder if the customer wanted to pay extra money for the option. Edison just found it easier to install the 10" and 12" buttons for the jobbers on the machines and ship them that way even though they went to absolutely nothing... That is all.

On many late Diamond Disc Machines, The 10", 12" buttons were present, but not hooked up to anything when shipped NEW. This has been verified many times by many different collectors over the years. I also have one of these machines. The 12" Long Play option could be installed at a later date by jobbers if the purchaser of the machine wished to order the separate Long Play Reproducer and mechanics option upgrade at a later date. It could also have been upgraded at the time of sale if the selling jobber "convinced" the new buyer of their C-19 that they really "needed" the "Long Play" option...which would have been an extra sale for the selling jobber...otherwise, the NEW C-19 went home with its new owner with 10" and 12" buttons that did absolutely nothing leaving the new owner curious as to what they were used for. The "curiosity" factor of the buttons was probably also used a side gimmick as well causing owners of their new Diamond Disc Players to contact their selling jobbers to see what they did and to find out they were all about..

)

Tony K.

Tony,

I'm really at a loss on where to start. Perhaps you could explain page 197 in Frow where the Long Playing Equipment Installation is discussed. One of the items included in the kit is the 10" and 12" starting key assembly. If your claim is true, why would these keys have been provided?

As Bill mentioned above, the 10" & 12" buttons are never "hooked up to anything." They merely provide a bumper to impede the horn's rotation and thus arrest the reproducer's movement over the start groove of the two sizes of record. This was indeed in response to a revived interest in 12" Edison records in 1922, as discussed on page 67 in Frow (2nd paragraph from the bottom).

I must disagree with you that Edison was supplying the 10" & 12" start buttons on machines (as early as 1922) in anticipation of the 1926 introduction of the Long Play equipment. I realize that you did not state it in this manner, but your argument can lead to no other conclusion. It's a logical conclusion if you think the starting keys were meant only for the Long Play apparatus, but as Bill's machine demonstrates, that premise is inaccurate. It is this misunderstanding which has led to your confusion.

Also, Edison jobbers did not sell to the public. They supplied the dealers who sold to the public.

George P.

[fran604g]

"Do you have an accredited source for your observations that you would be willing to share with me?"

Yes.

Myself. lol..

Most of the stuff I mentioned is also in Frow's Diamond Disc book as well. Pick up a copy if you don't have one. All of Frow's books are "Must Get"..though even Frow made a few mistakes as well, Most of his data is accurate. I have all of Frow's books.

Tony K.



http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj91 ... nModel.jpg

I actually own George L. Frow's, The Edison Disc Phonograph and the Diamond Discs, thank you very much. I've also read everything he has in it pertaining specifically to the "Chippendale" C250 and "Chippendale" C19. It is a wonderful place for me to start my research of historical fact related to these wonderful machines. Unfortunately, he also states particular features about them that are open to interpretation.

I will use an example that is directly related to my research and the intent of my original post (that it seems you would like to hijack, I might add).

For instance, on pg.116 (about the C-250):

"Record Storage:
Early models had two compartments with wooden dividers to enable edge numbers to be read. From December 1918 a vertical silicate index to meet eventual discontinuance of these numbers was provided. From early 1919 there were two drawers, each having five compartments holding ten records in sleeves."

Also on the same page:

"From April 1919 the C-250 Chippendale became known as the C-19 Chippendale Model."

He also states on pg. 146-147 (about the C-19):

"Introduction:(As C-19) April 1919

It is believed that all had two vertical record racks, each containing 36 Edison Discs."

When taking these two references in context, Frow seems to be suggesting that the two drawers preceded the vertical slats by a maximum of three months. We know that isn't true, as C-250's already employed them for some time. He also suggests preceding the drawers in December 1918, that "vertical silicate index" were made available to replace the "two compartments with wooden dividers". Where are these, "two compartments with wooden dividers"? Does he mean the two drawers, or something separate? In the many score of Chippendales I have examined, I haven't yet encountered a third record storage system.

It would seem, then, that the C-250 had drawers and the C-19 had vertical racks, but we know this isn't accurate, as examples of C-19's have been found that have the two drawer record storage system. The above statements could also mean that the vertical dividers could have been used in C-250's prior to the C-19 nomenclature. I have not encountered an example of this yet. We also know that there are many other examples of Edison Phonograph models throughout the company's history that are "transitional", therefore, it should come as no surprise that the New Edison Chippendales would also include examples that are transitional.

The goal of my research is to support or debunk prior knowledge by examining artifact that exists specifically related to the points that I have posted on page 1 of my original post, here:

Hi folks,

I need your help in compiling a spreadsheet as I explained in an earlier post here:

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... 038#p98038

It is my intention to compile as much data as I can find to establish, exactly or as closely as I can, when significant production changes were made to the C250 and C19 Diamond Disc Phonographs over their lifetimes. Once compiled, I feel that I should be able to demonstrate a chronological history of these changes and, hopefully, identify precisely when these changes were implemented by Thomas A. Edison Inc., from a serialization standpoint and when.

This is a large undertaking and, admittedly, I am a bit daunted, but I shall do my best.

The following are particular features and characteristics that I am looking for:

1. Model Designation: (C-250 or C-19)

2. Serial Number:

3. Bedplate Pinstriping: Y/N

4. "Official Laboratory" Medallion: Round/Pentagonal/None

5. Exact Wording of the Medallion: Please be precise (Abbreviated signature, for example)

6. Record Storage: Drawers or Shelves?

7. Cabinet Wood Type: Mahogany or Oak?

8. Duncan Stop?: Y/N

9. Dealer Tag: Name/Address, Location On Machine 

10. Original Dated Sales Receipt/Shipping Documentation, etc.: (Dates are particularly noteworthy):

11. Grille cloth? Color?

Your participation and comments are truly appreciated, thank you,

Fran

[fran604g]

Hi folks,

I now have two examples of transitional data plates for the C250/19.

One that I found on ebay:

And the one provided by Tony K.:

I also add that the data plates appear to be stamped aluminum for both the 250 and the 19, as opposed to aluminum for the 250 and brass for the 19 as stated in a previous post. It is also interesting to note that the white lettering seems to yield to black with wear.

I hope to encounter more of the same in my research.

Best,
Fran

[FloridaClay]

Wondering (without knowing) if the reason that there is black underneath the white is that the white might really be remnants of polish?

Clay

[fran604g]

Wondering (without knowing) if the reason that there is black underneath the white is that the white might really be remnants of polish?

Clay

Hi Clay,

I don't think so. Many of the C-19 data plates that I have observed, appear to actually be white lettering with a black outline, that might suggest that the lettering may have actually been two tone with the white being the first of the two colors to wear off. That being said, the above examples appear to be the reverse of this; white outline with black field lettering. Of course, it's too early in my research to make a definitive conclusion.

Best,
Fran