Diva Records - telling electricals from acoustics by label?

[De Soto Frank]

A friend and I were visiting Forum member Gemering last night, to pick-up an Orthophonic 8-12, and Gene demonstrated it with a 10" Diva record ( some dance number ) whose sound just blew me away.


Never before had I heard that kind of volume and clarity out of ANY acoustic phonograph.


The Wikipedia entry for Diva records ID's them as a Columbia product between 1925 and 1931, sold through W.T. Grant stores, and being electrically recorded after 1929.

I'm sure the disc I heard was electrical...

Is this indicated anywhere on the label ?


I literally felt like the guy in the old Maxell tape ads from the late 1970's...

[victorIIvictor]

G.C. Murphy stores? I'm pretty sure these were sold by W.T. Grant stores, as a replacement for the latter's Bell Record.

I don't think there's any indication on the Diva label, but it is easy to tell by looking at the matrix number in the runout . If the matrix number is preceded by the letter "W" in a circle, that would indicate the disc contains a recording made with the Western Electric system, which, as far as I know, was the only system Columbia used during Diva's lifetime. (This is also true for Diva's sister labels, Harmony (gold print on maroon), VelveTone, and Clarion (gold print on green).

Best wishes, Mark

[De Soto Frank]

Mark,

You are right about W.T. Grant stores... I got my 5 & 10s mixed-up.


Thanks for the info about the "W" in the run-out area... I will keep an eye open when looking at discs.




Frank

[FloridaClay]

I have two Diva recordings. Neither has the W, so I guess they are acoustic, but both are really good quality.

Clay

[Cody K]

Frank, thanks for opening up this discussion, as I've wondered about the same thing for awhile. I really enjoy my Diva discs, and the associated labels Clarion, Velvet Tone, etc. -- they tend to be excellent pressings that play well even when worn or damaged.

Mark -- thanks so much for the clue about the circled "W". That will help a lot! I haven't found a database that gives recording dates for Diva records (is there one?), which has been frustrating because I have this OCD thing where I like to write the recording date for each of my records on its sleeve. The only way I've been able to know acoustic Divas from electric ones has been to play them on the Credenza, and mark the sleeve with an "E" if obviously electrically recorded. Knowing about the "W" will make it so much easier to confirm.

[Harold Aherne]

Diva's catalogue numbers are exactly 2000 higher than Harmony (i.e. Harmony 500-H is the same as Diva 2500-G). Harmony issues can be found at
http://www.78discography.com/

Be aware that Diva wasn't introduced until some point in 1927 and issues stopped in late 1930 or early 1931, so not everything found on Harmony will necessarily be found on Diva.

The Columbia dime-store labels began using electrical recording occasionally during 1928 (e.g. on Annette Hanshaw's recordings), but acoustic recording didn't stop completely until the spring of 1930. The last known acoustic matrix is 150528, 23 May 1930, issued on Harmony 1183-H, Velvet Tone 2183-V and Diva 3183-G.

-HA

[edisonplayer]

Columbia did'nt use the W in a circle for their electric recordings on their budget labels until about 1932.I'm not sure why they did'nt use it earlier.edisonplayer

[Cody K]

Thanks for that information, Harold. I've known vaguely that there is a way to tie the budget labels' numbers together, but I didn't know what it was. Your tip helps a lot! It's also interesting to know that they continued to record acoustically so late, especially since they had the capability of recording electrically. I wonder if the acoustic recording equipment was moved out for use at secondary studios? By the way, is it safe to conclude from your last sentence that while Diva numbers add 2000 to Harmony's number, Velvet Tone adds 1000? And how do these numbers tie in with records that originated at Columbia, if at all?

Edisonplayer, your info doesn't seem to square with what Mark (victorIIvictor) has said, if Diva was gone by 1931. Off to dig out the Divas and look for "W"s -- though I'm fairly certain that all the Divas I have are pre-electric, so if I don't find any it won't be much of a surprise.

[Harold Aherne]

Thanks for that information, Harold. I've known vaguely that there is a way to tie the budget labels' numbers together, but I didn't know what it was. Your tip helps a lot! It's also interesting to know that they continued to record acoustically so late, especially since they had the capability of recording electrically. I wonder if the acoustic recording equipment was moved out for use at secondary studios? By the way, is it safe to conclude from your last sentence that while Diva numbers add 2000 to Harmony's number, Velvet Tone adds 1000? And how do these numbers tie in with records that originated at Columbia, if at all?

The budget label series don't tie in with Columbia's main catalogue numbers, although masters intended for the budget series were recorded in the same 14/150000 matrix series as those intended for the main label. That changed by 1931, when masters intended for Harmony et al. were numbered in 351000 and 365000 blocks.

Harmony 1-H through Harmony 1272-H can be mapped to Velvet Tone by adding 1000 and substituting a -V suffix. Similarly, they can be mapped to Diva by adding 2000 and substituting a -G (since -D was already used for Columbia's full-priced domestic popular series). However, VT and Diva pressings don't become regular until the time Harmony hit the 300s. Re-pressings of popular numbers can be found on lower numbers, but not everything with a Harmony number necessarily had a VT or Diva number.

Pseudonyms sometimes varied between the makes. Annette Hanshaw was billed under her own name on VT, but early Harmonys show her as "Gay Ellis". Her Helen Kane impersonations went out as "Dot Dare" on Harmony and "Patsy Young" on VT.

In late 1930, the catalogue series got a bit more complex. Starting with Harmony 1273-H, the numbers can no longer be keyed to VT issues. VT 2273-V through 2537-V went their own way, sometimes issuing sides that never appeared on Harmony:
http://www.78discography.com/VelvetTone2000.htm

Another budget label, Clarion, was introduced in August 1930. It was numbered in a 5000-C series, some of which contained sides by Annette Hanshaw, Kate Smith and various dance bands that were issued *nowhere* else.
http://www.78discography.com/Clarion5000.htm

And there were other catalogue series too. VT had a 7000-V catalogue block (used mostly for country and blues) and Harmony, VT and Clarion all had series dedicated to dual-track/longer-playing records. All the budget lines were discontinued in early 1932, soon after Grigsby-Grunow acquired Columbia.

-HA

[Phototone]

Somewhere I read that Columbia had just rennovated, and upgraded their acoustical recording process when the decision was made to adopt the Western Electric process. It would seem that they would want to get their investment back by using it for a few years on their dime-store labels. Also anything Columbia recorded by their acoustic process would not require paying a royalty to Western Electric.