The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

To be devastatingly cynical about this, the value of every machine's probably gonna drop like thun-thun-thun after the last big-time collector croaks. And since most of your survivors won't really want 99.9% of your collection (except for maybe one or two that they like), they'll be sold off at whatever price they can sell them for online. Believe me, I witnessed this all firsthand when my grandfather passed on in 2009. He wasn't really a collector of anything (although he did have a couple of Philco/Capehart radio/phonos, a reproducing piano, a Lionel trainset, etc., which were family pieces/things he tinkered with), but had a big estate. Needless to say, the vultures came in, mostly from one aunt who just wanted to live off her inheritance and thus wanted a bigger share than what the will had alotted, the estate was divided between his 3 daughters and their families, legal arguments ensued, and quite frankly, we did just pick and choose what had sentimental value to us and sold the rest. The whole ordeal was worse than the news of his death. And I'm sorry to say it, but I think that's what'll happen to a lot of phonograph collections after their owners pass on and there's no real demand for even the rarest items.

On the plus side, for the younger collectors, the good stuff will be ripe for picking And the wealth of information that has been left on the internet will help people know what they do have, so they know not to trash that hand-wound Berliner, but rather place it in a nice spot of the house, if only as a decoration piece.

JerryVan wrote:I've always found that if you collect anything based on what it's worth, you will never truly enjoy the item. Now, if you're into reselling, that's a different story. It's also not collecting.

What if you're a coin collector

JerryVan wrote:I've always found that if you collect anything based on what it's worth, you will never truly enjoy the item. Now, if you're into reselling, that's a different story. It's also not collecting.

I disagree. The only way I've been able to afford participating in this hobby is by horse-trading. One can be a reseller and a collector. There are numerous folks on this forum who do just that.

LadyHawke,

May I add my welcome to the Forum. As you can see by the excellent responses to your questions, you will find knowledgeable and experienced people here who are more than happy to share their experiences and advice. It is a really great place to learn. And we are fortunate that those people cover a very wide age range and that there are young people who share in the passion for these wonderful machines. So, yes, the hobby does have a future.

As far as acquisition is concerned, there is a spectrum ranging from dealers who acquire machines just to sell for (hopefully) a profit to those who collect purely for the joy of experiencing the craftsmanship of days gone by and having a window into the music and tastes of the past. And of course there are all kinds of people who fall at different points along that line. Many are a combination. They sell to support their collecting habits and work their way up, as some of the responses have described--selling machines A & B in order to buy machine C of greater quality and/or rarity.

I myself am probably on the "heart string" end of the spectrum. I see some sad sack derelict phonograph somewhere and something about it seems to send a "save me" message my way. I take it home and slowly work on restoring it to new life. Initial purchase prices are often low, but by the time I get replacements for missing or broken parts and pay restorers to fix this or that I am often into it for more than it is worth. This is not to mention the many hours of my own work that go into putting it right. I used to tell myself, especially as my home becomes more crowded, that I would sell some of them off. But that turned out to be much easier said than done. They become like your children after you spend hours on them and know them inside and out and their quirks and it can be hard to let them go.

Only time will tell where you find yourself falling along that line. The main thing is get what you love. If it increases in value over time well and good. If it does not, it has still brought you pleasure and the satisfaction of preserving bits of history for future generations.

Beware though, it is addictive!

Clay

I remember buying my first external horn gramophone in the days when any nice original example was worth good money. I mentioned to a friend that I might have paid too much for it, and he replied :

"Would you rather have the gramophone or the money in the bank?"

I think that says it all. I still have that gramophone, which has given years of pleasure to me and to others, for it is always one of the machines I use when giving talks and demonstrations. Non-collectors generally expect a gramophone to have a big horn!

My two cents on collections:

They are only worth what they are worth to you, and the value of the items is based upon what they do for you, and the enjoyment you get from them. I collect a lot of things, but one of my primary collections is oil/kerosene lamps. I have lamps that are over 100 years old, some that I've bought in deplorable condition. One in particular had all of it's brass parts painted gold sometime in the past, and if you account for the disassembly, the weeks the metal parts spend soaking in kerosene to soften up the old paint, and then brushing with old toothbrushes, scraping with plastic tools, fingernails, etc. in order to get that crass and ill-conceived paint job removed, and then re-assembly, I'll never recoup my time/expenses at any reasonable rate..but I do have a nice, 110 plus year old kerosene lamp with an intact GLASS font and brass/brass plated parts, and I've never seen one exactly like it anywhere. AND, I got it cheap at a thrift store. So my payoff in owning such an item is in returning it to "original", putting a wick in it (eventually, once I find one that fits...it's HUGE), filling it with fuel and lighting it up. Other lamps that I've bought because I LIKE them, and then bought the parts to get them back into working order, will probably be hard pressed to sell for the value of the parts. But they work, and light up the house when we use them.

My wife collects green depression glass, and we display it in a china cabinet that is full of the stuff. Her favorite color is green.

Restorers of old cars almost NEVER recoup their investment, unless it's a VERY exceptional vehicle and a lot of luck is involved. The payoff is in the joy of doing the job, and enjoying the car when it's done.

Antique sellers I know rarely do much work on their items, other than general clean up, because they know that unless the item is something truly exceptional, they won't recoup the investment with a much higher sale price. They leave the hard detail work to the person who buys the item, because it's the buyer who has fallen in love with the item.

I would say that the exception is those few folks who find the niche, get really good at filling it, become trusted, and are able to turnover what they restore because their reputation precedes them. I would guess that includes the few folks who restore talking machines/phonographs extremely well, and have become the "go to" people in the field.

My wife and I are filling our home with antiques because we like the look and feel of a home filled with antiques. But our kids are getting older and are playing videos games, and are interested in Ford Raptor trucks, (I'd rather own a 1960's F-100), IPOD's, etc. And have very little interest in the "old" stuff around. My guess is that if they learn to appreciate antiques in their later years, it may very well be "antiques" from the 1970's or 1980's, rather than the 70 plus year old stuff we have in our house today.

So we collect what makes us happy, find the best deals we can, enjoy the items now, and hope for the best if resale becomes an issue down the road.

Hello all,
I have noticed that as the stock market has recovered so have the prices for machines started to edge back towards their highs of pre 2008. That said there are still good deals to be had and prices have not peaked yet. We did a poll a while back and the average age of a Phonograph collector is something like late 50's to early 60's. I am 58 now and almost all the collectors I know are my age or older. Most of us have paid off the mortgage and the kids are out and on their own. This has freed up some income that we now use to purchase some of the more desirable machines that we couldn't afford 10 years ago. This will help keep Phonograph prices stable for now. However in the next twenty years we could see a drastic decline in prices. In twenty years todays average collector will be in his/hers 80's and will be faced with the dreaded task of selling off most or all of the collection. We did another poll on how many machines the average collector has and the number turns out to be over 50. As you know the California Antique Phonograph Society and the Michigan Antique society are planning to merge. Their combined membership will exceed 800 and that's just the collectors that choose to subscribe to a magazine. There are hundreds out there that don't. What will happen in twenty years when perhaps 600 collectors try to place upwards of 30,000 machines on the market over the span of a few years? This has got to impact prices. That said I will have enjoyed my collection for most of my life and have no regrets.
Pete

Excellent points, Pete. Yes, with all hobbies one must be a realist--and that means: collect for your own enjoyment and don't get caught up in investment/appraisal matters, unless you're a dealer. Obviously you will want to know the basics about value so that you're not cheated when you do purchase. But otherwise, life is too short, and our economy too volatile, to imagine we have very much control. I used to be a coin collector--and so many of those are worried about value. I decided to switch to antique phonographs as one can get so much active pleasure from them: they provide a wide window into our cultural past, MUCH more than stamps or coins do; PLUS one leans some interesting mechanics along the way.

Oh, BTW, I'm back. Got my feeling bruised a few months back by someone who mocked some of my particular enthusiasms. Well, I've decided to REALLY double down on "Can We Talk?" and will ENJOY sticking up for my points of view from now on, even if I don't own 100 machines and 10,000 records; even if I'm not a dealer.

pughphonos wrote:Oh, BTW, I'm back. Got my feeling bruised a few months back by someone who mocked some of my particular enthusiasms. Well, I've decided to REALLY double down on "Can We Talk?" and will ENJOY sticking up for my points of view from now on, even if I don't own 100 machines and 10,000 records; even if I'm not a dealer.

Good for you! And welcome back.

Clay

Welcome back, pughphonos!

Very interesting discussion. I saw my first phonograph in a antique store when I was 13 back in 1987, my dad purchased it for me, we cleaned it up, and with the help of my grandfather, was able to restore it. The machine was a Magnola Talking Machine (Chicago) and still have and play it today.

Fast forward 26 years later, I just turned 40 in October, and have enjoyed every bit of phonos. I now own about 9 phonos, was forced to sell many of my phonos at low prices (Edison P-1; Columbia B and Q etc.) As far as an investment, many can be but again depends on the market, rarity etc.

I personally buy on emotion, and do look at the price, because I want to make sure I am getting a fair deal on the machine. As far as the future of value in phonos, its unpredictable. I think you will always have a historical interest in phonos, but many people will buy as a curiosity not as a restored playable collectable. Our younger generation does not seem to be as interested in these machines having been from the ipod generation. However, most younger people my age were not into antique phonos either (walkman generation).

I took some antique trains into a local train shop, believe it or not the owner of the shop was only paying 20.00 for a 1950s train set, I remember not long ago (1990's) these were hot items in the 200.00 range. The owner told me that market values are down since many older people are passing on and the market is becoming saturated beyond the demand of the younger generation.

In conclusion, my perspective is the general collector should purchase phonographs as a interest and not solely on value. You can find much satisfaction with a basic Victrola or Edison upright or a tabletop VV-VI or VV-IX with many available in the 200-300 range. Enjoy the hobby and let the future take care of itself.