Cautionary Ebay selling tips, learned the hard way

[audiophile102]

Thanks for posting the selling tips. I buy 78 records and Edison records on ebay. What I don't understand is why more sellers don't post a recording of the actual record. That way I would know what to expect. I bought a 78 that the seller listed as G+, but it was very poor. Covered in dirt the record was worthless. I was happy that I received a full refund including shipping. Your idea to post a video on You Tube makes lots of sense and I hope more sellers do it as well. I sold some records on the forum by posting a you tube video. Much better than ebay!

[Phono48]

I agree that eBay seems to have forgotten that it is the SELLER who pays their fees. As well as siding with the buyer right or wrong, they now charge fees on the seller's postage costs as well as the final value of the item. Sellers now have to choose whether to inflate the cost of postage by 10% or take a hit.

This really makes me angry!! How the hell can they justify taking 10% of the postage costs, when neither eBay or Paypal are involved in that part of the transaction?
Also, why is it impossible for sellers to leave negative feedback for troublesome, idiotic buyers? I've tried asking many times, but no sensible reply to date!

[Dave Cawley]

I hate to say this, but some eBayer's were charging little on the item, and a shed load on the postage, so as to mostly circumvent the selling fee !

[snallast]

I agree: the best way to get a fair deal is not to use Paypal at all - they will only use it against you - the seller. Either checks, cash - whatever - but not Paypal, I´m never using them again!

[Uncle Vanya]

These things happen. There is always the occasional conniving customer. So what! The sellers pay the eBay fees, but we are only able to do so because buyers are confident that they will not be scammed. If one sells in a brick and mortar store there is the occasional "inventory shrinkage" loss. Treating customers with suspicion due to these inevitable losses is band for business. The same is true online, it seems to me. The occasional scammer is a small price to pay for the markets that the 'bay opens up to all of us.

[briankeith]

My issue has always been about poor packaging and shipping - I sound like a broken record here but unless you know talking machines like we all do HERE ON THIS FORUM,,, the seller does not and packs poorly most of the time. I have even given detailed packing instructions to the seller and they were just ignored. I only buy parts now on EBay - no machines unless I can drive to the sellers location and pick it up. Plus I buy from forum members of course with excellent results !

[gramophone-georg]

I don't sell on eBay too frequently, but know my way around pretty well. However a recent transaction taught me a few things in somewhat uncomfortable fashion, and I aim to save some of you fellow phonoists similar trouble by sharing a few tips gleaned from the experience. Here we go:

1. If you list something as "as-is, no returns" - which is especially important to the seller financially on stuff that is expensive to ship - eBay can still require you to accept it back if the buyer files what eBay considers to be a valid complaint about it. So you need to set about preventing the sort of complaints that will run against you in ebay's superficial eyes.

2. In my example, I sold a portable phono that was worn but usable. I'd made sure it ran perfectly when it left here, and described and showed it accurately, and listed it as "as-is, no returns." It sold for only a little more than the reproducer was worth, and shipped for about half the auction price, but whatever, I had cleared it out of here. But: I did not shoot video of it running.

3. The buyer was not a phono collector, nor was she mechanically inclined. Upon arrival she claimed it didn't work, and I went to great pains to help her get it working, through detailed instructions and questions. Long story short, there was nothing wrong with it and she simply had buyer's remorse and wanted to back out, on my nickel. She filed a claim with eBay, saying it didn't work. She also said it was well packed and undamaged...so an insurance claim could not be filed either. And eBay rubber stamped the claim as valid and required me to pay to ship it back, and removed her purchase and shipping payment from my paypal account. As-is, no returns held no weight whatsoever - eBay can unilaterally remove that element from your auctions, for no cause.

4. I knew that if she shipped it back I would likely get a box of firewood and scrap metal, and be out the additional shipping money to boot, so I declined the return. She keeps the machine, for free. And although I got eBay to request photographic proof of damage and/or non-function, she did not provide it and still "won" the claim. (After the resolution, I messaged her to give the thing to some local kid to tinker with, in case the kid could have fun trying to fix it. No response. Hope she's enjoying her free phono.)

So how do we prevent this sort of thing? Here is what I would suggest:

- If the item is sold as functional, shoot video of it on your phone, playing or otherwise working. You can retain that for possible use, or even better, just throw it up on YouTube and include that URL in the listing as an extra sales helper. This will remove the "he said it works, but it doesn't" claim.

- Develop some boilerplate wording for your listings that informs novice buyers that the thing is 100 years old (or whatever) and so not to expect modern day performance or cosmetics (unless condition is a selling point), in a friendly way. This removes the claim of "not working right" by people who are disappointed it doesn't sound as good as their Bluetooth iPhone speaker.

- Shoot pictures of the packing process, and of the final package, and hang onto them til the thing arrives safely and is accepted. This removes the potential claim that you packed it wrong and it broke in transit, and bolsters any potential insurance claim.

- Insure everything, and require buyers to pay for it, and clearly include that fact in your listing. If things go south, it's a fallback for you - admittedly iffy at times, but better than nothing.

- For mechanical items that might get out of alignment or otherwise mildly less-than-optimal, include an offer of post sale phone support. This can prevent issues from people who can't figure out how to place a turntable on a spindle, or thread a crank onto a shaft through a cabinet escutcheon or tighten a needle chuck or put a reproducer on a tone arm. There are way more people like that than we probably want to acknowledge, and a little patient guidance can save much acrimony later.

- This last one might be too much, but I will throw it in anyway. It struck me during the debugging attempt that the buyer might have been trying to play late vinyl 78s, or even vinyl LPs, on the thing. These would obviously not play on a 20's phono, dragging under the heavy tracking force, and in the case of the LPs, also never being able to be near the correct speed, and kicking out vinyl shavings, etc. My buyer reacted with anger at my asking this, because she knew all about such things - by virtue of her grandfather having once owned a victrola. (Such hereditary expertise transfer requires more extensive research, involving genomic blood testing and brain cat-scans of the offspring of Messrs. Paul and Rondeau, with my own kids as the control group.)

All right, I hope this helps at least some of us. Sadly, the eBay monopoly makes it hard to just walk away from the process, so these tips may help keep things easier if you want to sell. I do think I'm going to stop selling anything larger or more complex than an Edison Standard, because the risk and cost increases quite a bit after that.

Good luck.

Peter, the problem will all of this is that you as the seller can still wind up getting the shaft. there have been documented instances of sellers having to pay return shipping on a "Not As Described" case because an item listed as "for parts or not working"... did not work!

And yes, a buyer CAN send "anything" back in place of your item, and eBay will force the refund.

It's not that eBay favors buyers over sellers... it's actually that eBay favors eBay over everyone, but buyers just happen to reap the unintended benefits. Example: eBay buys a lot of buyer goodwill, but does it with money that is not theirs. It's like free advertising- and if the seller loses, eBay still gets to keep the fees, too. What's not to like if you're eBay? Let's face reality: Scammers make eBay money. Period.

You can do anything you want to try to protect yourself from these things, but there is only one foolproof method to avoid getting scammed selling on the internet: Avoid eBay entirely, and do NOT accept PayPal for payment anyplace else.

Don't know if you are aware of it, but PayPal has a new policy that I call '180 Days Same As Free': the buyer has six months to claim it's "not as described" or even that they never got it!

The second part is REALLY bad because the USPS, Fedex, and UPS only retain tracking numbers for 90 days. If your "buyer" claims they never got it on Day 179, you're not going to be able to provide online viewable tracking from the carrier because it dropped out of the system at 90 days. Guess what PayPal decides in this case? Yup, they award the "buyer" the win because the seller can't provide proof of delivery.

No, they won't accept printouts, screen shots, shipper intranet evidence... Why? because they claim all of these can be faked (and unfortunately they are right).
We have found that is some instances, the USPS can and will reactivate a tracking number for a seller in these circumstances if the seller pleads his case with the local postmaster, but so far no word from FedEx or UPS on this.

It's a real mess.

Some of you may also be aware that eBay "spun off" PayPal last July and now they are "separate companies". I put that in quotes because those of us who follow this stuff know better. In the "split" agreement it's spelled out that eBay will pay a "fine" if PayPal usage drops below 80% in the next five years... and immediately after the split, eBay banned all other electronic payment providers- Skrill, ProPay, etc. Now buyers are allowed to choose between paying by credit card directly or paying by PayPal.

However, the choice is only smoke and mirrors- the credit card gateway is Payflow, owned by...wait for it... PayPal.

So, here we have a "separate company" with what they wanted all along, and likely the real reason they are now "separate"... a de facto total monopoly on eBay.

What this means is that now an eBay seller is actually in triple jeopardy on every eBay sale. The buyer can file an eBay case, and, if they lose that, they can open the same case with PayPal. There have been many, many instances of PayPal finding for the buyer even when eBay backed the seller. If the buyer loses with both eBay and PayPal and they paid with a credit card... they can do a credit card chargeback.

What's funky about the CC chargeback with PayPal is that PayPal is the merchant of record, and they will "fight" it for you... but where I just shake my head and laugh is that PayPal can spend the payroll to fight and win on your behalf and they get nothing for this... but if they lose, you agree to pay them an extra $20 for basically "throwing the fight". Hmm... Let's see... I am going to have to pay payroll out of my own pocket to fight for my customer... or I can just not bother and make a quick 20. Gee, wonder what I'ma gonna do....

Sorry this is so long and reads like Chicken Little... but these are the facts with eBay/ PayPal these days. I think you need to know.

I loved eBay back when it was a venue and not a "managed marketplace", and I've been with PayPal since the beginning. They were great when they were "services", but once they started to feel entitled and they wanted to look at what's mine as theirs I couldn't shut down selling on eBay fast enough.

It wasn't until eBay bought PayPal that the "community" became "sellers v. buyers"... and that was all so eBay could force PayPal and double dip on every sale "for our own good".

It's a shame, but with eBay, everything they do is nothing but a money grab.

[Panatropia]

Yes, a money grab. Well said. I did a great deal of selling on eBay before it became the buyer focused, FeePay monolith it is now. One aspect that hasn't been discussed is the "shakedown buyer". I used to buy and sell high-end collectible musical instruments. Primarily saxes and trumpets. I would do my level best to describe the condition, my pics were always clinically clear and I offered the option of refund if the buyer was not satisfied.
However, human nature being what it is, I was victimized by a couple of the better known instrument dealers/resellers. (I've never had issues with the collectors) thus; When they received the item it wouldn't be long before I would get a message informing me that there was some problem with it. I recall the complaints as being totally groundless and designed to impose upon my supposed lack of knowledge. In all cases they asked for a "price adjustment", ergo, they wanted me to refund them some money to cover these "problems I didn't mention" or "work that was needed". My response was to tell them to send the damn thing back in the same shape they got it in and I would refund their whole amount. One guy let it rest, kept the item and I never heard from him. The other fellow continued to hammer away. Reducing his "adjustment" amount until I just ignored him. I don't know if this has happened to any of you, but it was/is a sad, but regular occurrence with expensive musical instruments.

I give my items to a friend who does eBay now.

[epigramophone]

I have had just one instance where a buyer tried to negotiate a price reduction because of an imaginary fault. My response was exactly the same. I offered a full refund on return of the item and never heard another word.

Some people will try anything to get something for nothing, but fortunately most people are honest, otherwise no-one could buy or sell with confidence. Ebay has it's problems, but it has enabled many of us to vary and enhance our collections by judicious buying and selling.

What Ebay needs, but probably does not want, is strong and effective competition. Craigslist barely registers here in the UK.

[Phono48]

Some people will try anything to get something for nothing, but fortunately most people are honest, otherwise no-one could buy or sell with confidence. Ebay has it's problems, but it has enabled many of us to vary and enhance our collections by judicious buying and selling.

Well put, my thoughts exactly.