Waterbased finish - horrible mess

[frenchmarky]

Well I got back from Home Depot, I grabbed a can of shellac, but the dude there verified I can't buy the old-style lacquer in California anymore. All they have is water-based polyurethane substitutes, so I that's one reason that is what I settled on in the first place.

On Mohawk I found this:
http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog ... 80&atomz=1
This comes in matte, satin, semi-gloss, gloss, flat. Does this look like what I want for brushing on over the shellac, and which one would probably be the best to look like the original orthophonics 'satin lacquer' (from Look for the Dog")? I didn't see anything warning about having this shipped to me in California (?)

Maybe I'll just try a few coats of the shellac and see what that alone looks like, with the suggested dulling down of the finish. If I'm not satisfied with that then I could opt to go full bore with the lacquer over it. Does this sound like a good plan, since I am not aiming for a super-glossy finish anyway? Sounds safer anyway, for my skills. If I opt for this, how many coats of shellac will I end up needing to put on for a good job?

Thanks!

[gramophoneshane]

Before rushing in with the shellac, I'd first get a scrap of timber, apply the same stain you used on the Credenza, and once dry, try the shellac.
If the stain is turpentine based, you'll have no problems, but if it's spirit based, you might find the shellac dissolves the stain where you overlap brush strokes. If it is spirit based, it's not a great problem, but it just means you have to apply the first 3 or 4 coats a little differently to when you use a turps based stain.
That Mohawk lacquer looks like exactly what you need. I'd be using myself instead of oil if it was available in Australia.

[larryh]

Frenchy,

No.. your looking at regular lacquer not brushing lacquer which is plainly marked on the can as Brushing Lacquer..

Frankly its a toss up on which way to proceed. Actually I think for some one with no experience with it shellac might be your best bet. I know there are various methods here for putting it on and Shane is showing probably his pad applied technique? Not clear on that. I use the brush method with the shellac as it comes out of the can thinned with three parts denatured alcohol to one part of shellac. That way you can pretty quickly brush it out to get a fairly smooth finish. Those thin coats take upwards of 6 or more coats to give a real deep finish. But I must admit its tricky to do and even I have trouble with it at time.. If you can master the pad method that is mentioned in one of the threads here with some photos you may have better luck and avoid the lines that shellac can make if not put on just so.. The good part of the multiple thin coats is that you can quickly sand lightly between coats to sand down any humps you may accidently get in. (that works to a degree, I often have trouble with it gumming up when I try to sand a run in it). I wouldn't touch the cabinet with either product till you send some time building up coats of it on a old piece of furniture or some bare wood to get the feel for how it has to be applied, and what it will and won't due. Both products are prone to leaving bare spots if the brush isn't just full enough, and yet if too full it will for sure cause ridges and high spots or worse runs. Redoing a cabinet the first time is really not that simple for a beginner or even myself and I have done it for years, always swearing I won't do it again.

The lacquer on the other hand can be pretty forgiving if you work fast and its the right consistency. I really don't know which way to tell a beginner to go? It takes two to three coats to get a half way decent depth.. It too is rubbed down when well dried like the shellac is and then waxed usually. That way you get rid of that excessive gloss that makes it show every little defect. Its always a relief to see it after its rubbed down and waxed, looks like a more finished work then.


Shane.. I was talking about shellac as to be used under lacquer not under polyurethane products which aren't what most phonograph people like but many do use anyway. I can almost see why someone with little knowledge would be better off using a standard oil based ( or what ever there are polys) due to the ease of use in comparison to other things..

good luck with it , sounds like your going to need it. Just don't give up, I usually end up with several attempts before I get everything on a piece the way I want them.

[larryh]

Before rushing in with the shellac, I'd first get a scrap of timber, apply the same stain you used on the Credenza, and once dry, try the shellac.
If the stain is turpentine based, you'll have no problems, but if it's spirit based, you might find the shellac dissolves the stain where you overlap brush strokes. If it is spirit based, it's not a great problem, but it just means you have to apply the first 3 or 4 coats a little differently to when you use a turps based stain.
That Mohawk lacquer looks like exactly what you need. I'd be using myself instead of oil if it was available in Australia.

Is is not brushing lacquer according to the photo and I don't see it listed on that list under the cans..

Larry

[martinola]

Deft makes(or made) the kind of lacquer we're talking about. Here's a link to what I've found doing a quick google search:

http://www.deerso.com/QT_DEFT_SATIN_FIN ... px?src=gbs

I can still find the spray can version of this at my local Home Depot here in So. Cal., (which I would use in a pinch). Otherwise mail-ordering on "the don't ask, don't tell" policy would be the next approach. (I know of somebody in Santa Monica who paid their painter to drive to Arizona for the oil-based paint they wanted for a custom kitchen!) If there's absolutely no getting around that in the future, I'll just stick to shellac. It really finishes out quite well. Good luck.

Martin

[frenchmarky]

I am trying my hand on the shellac on the back of one of the small doors, sure takes some getting used to in applying this runny stuff with a brush... where you have to get the right amount on the brush, then CAREFULLY do only one or two or three slow, longer strokes. I can see where it isn't like brushing paint where you can keep sloppily going over the same area over and over. More like wiping the paint on with the brush. You really have to look at each brushstroke as you go to make sure the stuff is going on correctly.
If this door comes out like I want it to look after some more coats and the dulling up with steel wool etc., I'll just go with this. I don't see it having any streaking problems with the stain I used so looks like I'm ok there. I am going to make sure I let each coat dry at least 24 hours, I don't want any screwy stuff happening with that issue. Thanks everybody, I'll report my progress.
Marky

[gramophoneshane]

Have a look at this thread & have ago at applying the shellac the way I suggested here. It really is easy & it's the best way I've found to apply shellac. It doesn't have to be new fabric either. I just chop up my old pants or jumpers that get a hole in knee or stains on them
You've got nothing to loose by trying it anyway.

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=3862

[frenchmarky]

Thanks, I might try this too.
Marky

[larryh]

Your shellac will dry in 30 minutes enough to go over it with the next thin coat. That is one of the beauties of it. I tend to turn the pieces so that I am mostly working on flat surfaces with it or the lacquer since as you've noted it takes a reasonably full brush and a smooth even pressure for each pass. You just let the two brush loads overlap enough to coat then move to the next lap. When your up against a recess panel or edge its best to get the hang of putting the brush down about six inches or so from the corner/edge and then backtracking to that edge once and quickly go back and finish your long flowing stoke to the other end of the piece. You don't want to have a full brush and start on an edge or against a recess because it will pool to thickly or run over the edges.

If your thinning to that 3 to 1 rate it should be quite thin and not tend to want to build up an ridge as it dries very quickly. It won't start to look good till you build up a number of those thin coats. You can go over shellac with lacquer if you so decide. If so then you only need one or two at the best of the shellac coats.

I will give Shanes site a look again and maybe try a practice surface on something to see if I can master the padding method. I don 't know why but the times I tired it I just got smeary looking rings..

[gramophoneshane]

I dont use a pad, just a piece of cloth, and you apply it with the grain, so you it's impossible to get any smeary rings.