Waterbased finish - horrible mess

[frenchmarky]

After sanding and staining my Credenza lid with an oil-based stain, I tried the waterbased satin poly finish I bought on a small spot on the underside edge and didn't see any issues. And I got an ok from a friend of a friend who said this combo should work ok as long as the stain was good and dry (I let it dry for a WEEK!) And the can of poly said the same thing, no warnings about using oil vs. water stain. So I applied one coat to the whole lid.

After a few minutes it had turned into a horrible mess of streaks of fogged-up areas all over the finish. I don't know if it was a reaction with the stain, or residue in the wood from the stripper, or what. The finish just turned into big streaked areas of white like watery milk, kind of random like was reacting to different amounts of chemical residue in different areas that I had worked. I don't get it, I had sanded the entire lid good, to where I was worrying I was taking off too much wood. Any suggestions on what to do next, after I sand and stain again? I guess I will just try using plain old varnish, if I can even buy it in California with all these smog laws. Should varnish work ok or should I try something else? I'm not sure what oil-based things I can still purchase here, or what is best to use.

Also, is there any stuff made specifically as sort of a after-stain, pre-finish sealer, that I could put on after staining, that could prevent any further mishaps like this? I figure though that if I use an oil-based finish I won't have to worry about it, I hope!

Thanks!

[frenchmarky]

Correction - the finish isn't actually called an acrylic on the can - it is Deft acrylic wood finish. Not sure if that makes a big difference from a polylurethane for this application on wood stain or not, but again the can didn't have any kind of warning about not combining the two.

[gramophoneshane]

I hate to ask....but WHY would you use water based garbage on anything antique?
I can never understand why people do such thinks. There is no advantage to using any kind of modern finish on any item unless it's to be exposed to a lot of liquid or excessive heat.
And in my opinion, traditional finishes like shellac & lacquer are far easier to apply & get a great finish with. Both are touch dry within a few minutes, and can be recoated after half an hour or so, unless you are after a very deep shiny finish.
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but it's sounds like you are ruining a good machine that the next owner will have to strip the day they get it, which of course will reflect harshly on it's value.
You should be able to get a satin lacquer over there that you can either brush or spray on, or if you have to use shellac, the shine can be dulled down when it;s finished by rubbing it down with steel wool followed with a coat of wax, or you can give it a final coat with a coat of tung or danish oil, which is wiped on with a rag and wiped off again.
Please... keep the water based stuff for the floor of the chicken coop where it belongs.

[martinola]

frenchmarky, I feel your pain.

My restorations from the 1970s have been coming back to haunt me (as I seem to be running into them these days). Three things have really helped me to improve my finishing skills:

One was to consider the source of the advice I was getting. The kid at Home Depot may have vastly different standards or experience than you do. (Not "good different"!)

The next is the internet. A whole lot of info is out there. (Both good and bad.)

Finally, (and this is one you're feeling right now), is the realization that you're human and you're learning something. My main advice is to shake it off, forgive yourself for whatever mistake you might have made and move to correct the problem.

I share Shane's dislike of the water based stuff. Water is usually a bad idea on wood. I have been known to use water based aniline dye stains, but I never feel really good about using water. Thorough drying is a must. The other complication is that water always raises the grain and requires more sanding. The Credenza's original finish was Nitrocellulose Lacquer. The color was dye in the lacquer itself which was sprayed on. I think the first sealing coats were shellac. And that is what I would recommend for you. Although you may be able to find the stuff you need locally, you may want to check out Mohawk as they have everything you would need to do a traditional lacquer finish. Even if you don't buy from them, you can learn a lot by reading up on their different products. Here's their link:

http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp


I'd guess that you had multiple failures, judging by what you describe. You can get adhesion problems with Polyurethane if there are contaminants on the surface, like wax, silicone or stripper. Shellac usually has wax in it (unless specially formulated), most spray furniture polishes have silicone and stripper (as you know), is nasty stuff. Any one, or a combination will mess you up. Additionally, if your oil stain was very thick, it might take huge amounts of time to properly dry. It really doesn't matter as you will probably want to try a different method next time.

After you have a chance to get your breath, I'd recommend stripping it back down. Wash it down real good with mineral spirits, let dry, lightly sand and stain with oil stain (or other) in successive passes. After it's stained, I'd let it dry at least a week if it's inside climate control or more depending if the weather is damp or cold and humid. It shouldn't be tacky or sticky. After that, I'd seal with 2 coats of clear shellac, sand, and then build up a lacquer finish on top. Either spray or brush it, but finish sand between coats. After it has dried a good, long time, (2-3 weeks at least, I'd polish with rottenstone and wax it. Good luck. You can do it. You now know one way that doesn't work.

Let us know how it's going. A Credenza is well worth the trouble.

Martin

[larryh]

My william and mary console has been a similar problem but I am using lacquer, the brush on type. The first coats went on pretty good over a alcohol stain I had, but it dries so fast and even though it looked pretty good in a subdued light, when the sun shone on it though a window one afternoon I was pretty sick, it looked awful. So I had to once again remove 5 coats of lacquer.. Here is where I again got in to some trouble. Like you I used an oil based stain. I checked with the internet and local paint sellers and various opinions were out there but the consensus was that the oil stain should be fine as long as its dry.. I had taken note of some using a thinned shellac wash over it to seal it. But after rubbing most of the stain off the cabinet well and letting it dry several hot dry days I went ahead an lacquered it again. First couple coats were pretty good but something seemed a bit odd about the way it was wanting to make little ripple like effects. I kept going and each coat after that one got worse. I ended up with a somewhat cloudy finish that shows like a patchwork in the right light. That brushing lacquer was evidently drying pretty quickly in the can causing it to drag something awful and the slightest attempt to go back over it was awful. The can says do not thin, so I was stuck there as well. I was afraid I was about to have to strip it once again.. But instead I got a fresh can of lacquer and gave it one final coat. While its not 100% its a lot better than it was before that. Lacquer melts into each layer as its put on and sort of evened out the issues with that final fresh coat. After I rub it down and wax it I think it will look pretty good.

Like everyone else I hate water based products for the most part. I was in the midst of painting a set of hooiser cabinets white for my mom and did one last fall and was going to do the others this summer and when I went to buy the oil enamel they informed me the state of illinois outlawed the sale of it as of the first of the year and the whole country was going to that next year. What a crock.. Our control government in action.. After a bout a two month time I discovered that some companies are now coming out with a new formula oil based paint which Ace Hardware is selling. He said it wasn't going to be quite as durable as the older oils but would have the shine I missed in the latex products.

As to going over the shellac be careful. I discovered the hard way that poly doesn't like shellac, it causes it to bubble up and make little holes. My neighbor who was a paint store manager for 38 years said it was the reaction to the shellac that did it. But a thin wash should work under lacquer. But here again it can be a night mare to work with as well it seems.

[JohnM]

Just buy 'technical coatings' instead of 'oil-based paint'. The jargon has changed to fit the laws. Alkyd-based enamel has replaced oil-based paint anyway. The stuff is poisonous and bad for living things no matter what it is called. Too many years of environmental ignoramuses dumping the dirty thinner on the ground so it goes into the water table or pouring it along the fence rows to kill weeds. It's a shame -- lead, heavy metals, and petroleum-based carriers and solvents DO yield a superior finish!

[larryh]

Just buy 'technical coatings' instead of 'oil-based paint'. The jargon has changed to fit the laws. Alkyd-based enamel has replaced oil-based paint anyway. The stuff is poisonous and bad for living things no matter what it is called. Too many years of environmental ignoramuses dumping the dirty thinner on the ground so it goes into the water table or pouring it along the fence rows to kill weeds. It's a shame -- lead, heavy metals, and petroleum-based carriers and solvents DO yield a superior finish!

Totally off topic but I find that its a bit disingenuous for the government to be so concerned with water quality while nearly forcing all the farmers around me to spray round up and atrazine all over the fields every year because they don't like tilling the land. The weeds have gotten worse over the years, in fact much worse due to the use of weed killers of all kinds. Our drinking water in spring and early summer is through the roof in contaminates from sprays, but still they persist at no till.

[martinola]

I suspect that the cans usually say "don't thin" these days because they are obliged to by air quality law (rather than causing problems in the finish). I confess that I thin sometimes. Remember: when they criminalize paint, only criminals will have paint!

Martin

[frenchmarky]

OK I have stripped and sanded it back down, and will reapply a bit of stain to make sure it is evened out again. Then I'll let it dry for a week or two and in the meantime check out what I can find in the way of shellac and laquer around here as per the suggestions everybody posted.
I admit to being a novice at this refinishing, all I ever did before this was reveneering and finishing the lid on my vv-210. The previous owner of this Credenza had redone it in an ugly lighter finish that was also worn out and sloppy, and I want to put it back to it's original mahogany tone. So I wasn't starting with a worn original finish, which I would have just left alone or tried to polish up. Everything worked out wonderful as far as the stripping, sanding and staining, the thing is beautiful after I rubbed off all the stain. Hey look mom I'm a furniture refinisher! : )
I just had to learn a lesson on the final finishing step here. Didn't know it was such a big deal as to what the actual material was as long as it looked decent, especially since I'm going for that original satin look of the orthophonics which isn't very shiny. But maybe the horrible fogging I ended up with will be a blessing in disguise to make me use the right stuff to begin with. I've been spending lots of $$ on this thing for miscellaneous parts that were missing, so I want to do a good job. I'll definitely test the results first on one door or the lid again, before I commit to doing the whole cabinet.
Thanks everybody!
Marky

[gramophoneshane]

But a thin wash should work under lacquer. But here again it can be a night mare to work with as well it seems.

Larry. I think if you're having trouble overcoating shellac with lacquer, it;s because you're using a premixed shellac which probably has some sort of preservatives added to give it a longer shelf life.
If you mix it yourself, it will only last a week or so before it goes off, but you could apply 100 thick coats of it and still overcoat it with lacquer successfully once it's dry.
The way to get around a short shelf life of the stuff you mix yourself is to only mix small amounts each time. I mix a small amount in the bottom of a plastic chinese takeaway container which is enough to do 4 or 5 coats on an average upright machine, and just mix more as it's needed. It only takes ½ an hour for the flakes to dissolve in such small amounts.
Below is a motor board I'm currently working on matching up to the the original finish on the rest of a machine. It's had about 15 coats of shellac and 2 coats of danish oil, and apart from the dust I forgot to wipe off before taking the photo, it's turning out fine. For a satin finish I just would have left the oil on longer before wiping it off.
Lacquer should overcoat shellac just as well.