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Here is a picture of my Canadian Berliner Serial number 914, very early in the production cycle. This is identical to yours. You should have copper rivets in the fibre gear.
I believe the early machines had a square front on the motor casting, and in later years, it was more of an "S" shaped front, but other than that, the motor still looked the same. I can send a picture of a motor I bought from Oliver Berliner that is identical except for "S" shaped motor casting.
Blain

Here's the motor on the repro machine from a different angle. It has 6 copper rivets in the gear.

Canuk Phonographs wrote:Here is a picture of my Canadian Berliner Serial number 914, very early in the production cycle. This is identical to yours. You should have copper rivets in the fibre gear.
I believe the early machines had a square front on the motor casting, and in later years, it was more of an "S" shaped front, but other than that, the motor still looked the same. I can send a picture of a motor I bought from Oliver Berliner that is identical except for "S" shaped motor casting.
Blain

Blain, nice to see another early Canadian model. I own #831 which is the earliest number I am able to locate thus far.

Early Canadian examples (1900) used motors made and exported by Johnson to Montreal. Most if not all metal components were imported from the US until Berliner was able to establish foundry works up here. The wooden components were made in Montreal as Berliner was using space in Bell's factory for making telephone's. So, the very early motors are in fact identical to the motors found in US sold machine's. This explains why Blain's early Canadian motor matches the Japanese copy of a US Berliner model (1899).

Getting back to the Japanese copy. They are nice, well made and fully functional. However, certain things were done to hinder unscrupulous dealers from using parts on original Berliners with missing parts. As mentioned, all threading was done in metric. Also mentioned, all spring cases and sound boxes were given the same two serial numbers 34371 and 18425 .

If you are well versed on Berliner's or have handled these Japanese copies, you will also see the sand cast parts (like the motor base and governor support) are not as refined or smoothly finished....a common telltale sign of any modern cast items. Compare Blain's excellent example and then look at the rough/crude casting on the copy........no comparison. Close, but no cigar.. .
There are many other telltale signs that I could go on about, but this should suffice.

I personally have had four or five of these copies and can assure everyone there is not one single original Berliner/Johnson made part on them.

Sadly, as these have started to age (in some cases with help), some of these copy parts are now found on original Berliner's. I have seen original Berliner's for sale on Ebay with the telltale Japanese serial number sound box. The same with the horn and crank, etc....

This is why I recommend collectors interested in Berliner's keep these two serial numbers on file for reference and do your homework.

gramophone78 wrote:

Canuk Phonographs wrote:Here is a picture of my Canadian Berliner Serial number 914, very early in the production cycle. This is identical to yours. You should have copper rivets in the fibre gear.
I believe the early machines had a square front on the motor casting, and in later years, it was more of an "S" shaped front, but other than that, the motor still looked the same. I can send a picture of a motor I bought from Oliver Berliner that is identical except for "S" shaped motor casting.
Blain

Blain, nice to see another early Canadian model. I own #831 which is the earliest number I am able to locate thus far.

Early Canadian examples (1900) used motors made and exported by Johnson to Montreal. Most if not all metal components were imported from the US until Berliner was able to establish foundry works up here. The wooden components were made in Montreal as Berliner was using space in Bell's factory for making telephone's. So, the very early motors are in fact identical to the motors found in US sold machine's. This explains why Blain's early Canadian motor matches the Japanese copy of a US Berliner model (1899).

Getting back to the Japanese copy. They are nice, well made and fully functional. However, certain things were done to hinder unscrupulous dealers from using parts on original Berliners with missing parts. As mentioned, all threading was done in metric. Also mentioned, all spring cases and sound boxes were given the same two serial numbers 34371 and 18425 .

If you are well versed on Berliner's or have handled these Japanese copies, you will also see the sand cast parts (like the motor base and governor support) are not as refined or smoothly finished....a common telltale sign of any modern cast items. Compare Blain's excellent example and then look at the rough/crude casting on the copy........no comparison. Close, but no cigar.. .
There are many other telltale signs that I could go on about, but this should suffice.

I personally have had four or five of these copies and can assure everyone there is not one single original Berliner/Johnson made part on them.

Sadly, as these have started to age (in some cases with help), some of these copy parts are now found on original Berliner's. I have seen original Berliner's for sale on Ebay with the telltale Japanese serial number sound box. The same with the horn and crank, etc....

This is why I recommend collectors interested in Berliner's keep these two serial numbers on file for reference and do your homework.

Canadian Berliner Trade Mark #831.JPG

Canadian Berliner Trade Mark #831 (2).JPG

How hard does everyone think it would be to secure one of the Japanese repros just to play Don Wilson repro Berliner records on? There is no way that I could ever afford an original machine since they keep their value and keep going up. Thanks! Mark

I happen to have a repro available for sale, will send you a direct email with pictures and price.

Raphael

Raphael wrote:I happen to have a repro available for sale, will send you a direct email with pictures and price.
Raphael

Wow, maybe I will get a commission for my raving revue of the Japanese copy.... .

Not to highjack this thread (sorry if I am), I thought it would be nice to show the highest numbered (that I know of) Canadian "trade-mark" style Gramophone (by now known as the Type A) #16200. Berliner used this very late 1902-03 model in a wonderful period lithographed ad.
I also want to mention the motor is slightly different to the 1900 type...... just very subtle differences. I'm just too lazy to open the case to photograph... .

If any member happens to know of a higher number than 16200....please let me know.

So if anybody wants an original Canadian Berliner trademark model, I am going to sell the 2 that i now own and keep the early model serial number 914 that I am presently working on.

Just PM for pictures
Blain

gramophone78 wrote:

Raphael wrote:I happen to have a repro available for sale, will send you a direct email with pictures and price.
Raphael

Wow, maybe I will get a commission for my raving revue of the Japanese copy.... .

Not to highjack this thread (sorry if I am), I thought it would be nice to show the highest numbered (that I know of) Canadian "trade-mark" style Gramophone (by now known as the Type A) #16200. Berliner used this very late 1902-03 model in a wonderful period lithographed ad.
I also want to mention the motor is slightly different to the 1900 type...... just very subtle differences. I'm just too lazy to open the case to photograph... .

If any member happens to know of a higher number than 16200....please let me know.

The attachment 1902-03 Canadian Trade-Mark Type A (2).JPG is no longer available

1902-03 Canadian Trade-Mark Type A.JPGThe attachment

is no longer available1903 Canadian Sign.JPG

My Canadian Type A Berliner is 16594.

Here is the motor of A 16594, as found and finished. They are simple and clever little mechanisms and I like seeing the crank unwind while it is playing. I am easily amused.

Django wrote:Here is the motor of A 16594, as found and finished. They are simple and clever little mechanisms and I like seeing the crank unwind while it is playing. I am easily amused.

I remember this machine. I had forgotten the high number. Since "Of Canada" is stamped into the plate, that would date this very late machine after April 8 1904 (a period when the Type A ($15.00) was already substandard) and before July 17 1909 when "of Canada" was dropped.

As you can see, my plate (although 394 units lower) is still under the "E Berliner" company name. Again, no surprise as I'm sure not many period consumers were wanting a embryonic relic by this point.

Thanks for sharing this.