Berliner Phonograph Analysis Please

[JohnM]

As an aside to your question, Gramophone78, perhaps some of you were fortunate enough to have known the late Grosvenor Fattic, who passed away in California way too young back in the mid-1980's. I had known him since my first couple of years collecting when he lived in western New York. Grosvenor was perhaps twenty years older than myself, and in his collection he had an absolutely mint 'Trademark' Berliner in it's original wooden traveling case and record storage box with all the accessories and original paper. It was like it came out of a time machine. He told me that he bought it in 1963 at an antiques store in (I swear) Pumpkin Center, Indiana when he was 18 years old for $5.
Haunted by that story, when I moved to Indiana, I went looking for Pumpkin Center (it doesn't appear on most modern road maps). Turns out my wife knew exactly where it was (between Bedford and Salem). We went there on a palaver one day and across the lane-and-a-half road from an old farmhouse is a weathered wooden barn with sort of a storefront cobbled on to it, the whole affair in very wretched and decrepit condition. Old signs indicate that antiques were once sold there, and in my mind's eye I could envision my young friend carrying that prize out of there so long ago.

[phonogfp]

When was the last time you saw a "in the wild" package like this for sale??.I'm just curious.

Package? I've never stumbled upon a Berliner with all the goodies for sale together in the wild. I bought an "Improved Gramophone" for $80.00 back in the 70s out of an antique shop, but it wasn't exactly a package. It came with 5 Berliner records - no box. I'm not a dealer, so I don't get around like some others do. (Perhaps these things pop up all the time! )

George P.

[gramophone78]

What a great story John.I have never heard of the man.I'm just wondering if you saw Uncle Josh while you were at Pumkin Center.... .5.00 for a whole package is hard to imagine.1963.....was I even born then???? .I also want to clarify that Starkton's comment is also a good one.If one is able to get something at a lower price and use the remaining money toward restoring or completing a machine,then great.However,I (if wanted bad enough) would not do it if the deal is going south.It all boils down to "WANT".......my favorite sin .My finders fee still stands.George,80.00 for Berliner.......where was I????.You long time collectors are sooooo lucky.I think the lowest I ever paid for a Berliner was 2800.00 and there was no records....I should have asked for a discount .

[Valecnik]

I also agree with Starkton's comment but I also have paid market + some for something really unusual or, something I "just had to have". Of course all dependent on whether I have, or could get, the money too. I've been really lucky to get a few more costly pieces from collectors who would accept payment over time. Without that flexibility, there would certainly be a few less machines in my collection today.

To John's comment, I'd also like to know a little of the backstory on the New Century and Gibson sound boxes, please? Thanks!

[gramophone78]

For those that want to know more about Robert L. Gibson and his contribution to the "Phono" world.I only know a bit regarding him.So,here it goes.......He was asked by Frank Seaman to make a cheaper machine that "Seaman" could sell and curcumvent The strangle hold (contract)Johnson & Berliner had on him.There at least two model that I know of that have survived.One is in "Look For The Dog".To make the story short.Lack of $$$ and presure from Berliner & Johnson put the whole matter to a swift end.However,Gibson was granted at least three patents (maybe more)for talking machines.One was the reproducer that became the "New Century" also the stamped metal arm and assembly that you find on the first front mount Victor's like the "E".He also had the patent for the "quick release" that you find on the early "Exhibition's".To read more on this,you can find it in "Look for the Dog".Staying on the topic of the "NC" reproducer.....Victor bought the rights to all three of these patents.They named the reproducer the "Johnson New Cencury" and was only made for a matter of months.This reproducer evolved into the Exibition and the rest is history as they say.In my opinion the "NC" is a very rare reproducer.I think it is even rarer than a closed face "J".However,some may disagree with that.I myself have only ever had one chance to buy one.A lot of collectors may not know that early Johnson machines like the A,B,C and D came standard with the "NC" or you could pay a little more and get the "Concert".It looks like most went with the "Concert" based on survial rate.It is written that Gibson did very well off the royalties from Victor for the rest of his life for his contributions.
I hope that George can add or correct any errors I have made in this condenced version of this.

[brianu]

you've gotten a lot of solid advice, and some great anecdotes, in response to your value questions about that berliner. I just hope that you follow up and let people know how your story ends up with this find... and I don't want to be unreasonable, but perhaps you could follow up on your other account of that douglas cased victor that also generated similar advice (rather than, with all due respect, just getting what you need and moving on)...

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=4418

[SonnyPhono]

I was the one who posted the thread about the Douglas phonograph. You're obviously confused. Either way, I didn't post that thread to get what I needed and there isn't a "story" behind it. It was found at an auction and yes, I was planning on bidding, but I didn't ask about the value. I simply posted the thread because I had only seen one other phonograph like it and was curious if anyone had more information on it. I was thanked for posting that thread and sharing it with the board so I don't see your point.

[antique1973]

you've gotten a lot of solid advice, and some great anecdotes, in response to your value questions about that berliner. I just hope that you follow up and let people know how your story ends up with this find... and I don't want to be unreasonable, but perhaps you could follow up on your other account of that douglas cased victor that also generated similar advice (rather than, with all due respect, just getting what you need and moving on)...

http://forum.talkingmachine.info/viewto ... f=2&t=4418

Actually I was the one who started this thread and I just woke up since I work the night shift. Of course I will follow up with details, and I always appreciate the kind
words and helpful information of the members on this board.

[antique1973]

This thread has generated a great deal of interest and many very helpful
insights, thanks so much for all your help! The seller (who was located in
Canada) unfortunately just informed me she sold the package to someone in
Calgary, Canada. I would have been happy to refer her to the members of the
board who are better positioned to buy, but I guess its too late.

[Sidewinder]

This thread has generated a great deal of interest and many very helpful
insights, thanks so much for all your help! The seller (who was located in
Canada) unfortunately just informed me she sold the package to someone in
Calgary, Canada. I would have been happy to refer her to the members of the
board who are better positioned to buy, but I guess its too late.

Sorry to hear that you were not successful. I was holding thumbs for you! I think all collectors dream of finding such an early Berliner with the additional box of records.

Anyone remember the Berliner many years ago that someone bought of ebay just before Christmas, with a "buy it now" of $75 (I think). The phono collector lottery!!! I'm not sure if it was written up on this board