Berliner Phonograph Analysis Please

[antique1973]

I am trying to negotiate a deal on this but I am pretty clueless as far as
what is missing parts wise, what is not original, etc. I am assuming the records
are berliners but I have not got the specifics yet. Any info you guys can send my way
is greatly appreciated. Thank-you.

[FellowCollector]

My advice is to grab this VERY quickly if the price for the machine and the records is under 5 grand. It would be in my home the day I found this group if it were 5 grand or less - even 6 grand would be tempting to me. The record box alone is very scarce and the there could be some valuable Berliners in the box as well. The group looks virgin and that is the way you want to find Berliners and Berliner records. You're missing the the horn (no big deal), one governor weight may be missing (no big deal - it should have three weights, turntable felt (easy to replace with original from another early machine) and the horn carriage wire. Reproducer looks later but not a problem. Decal is a bit rough but again no biggie. You have easily 5 to 6 grand there. Grab it before I find it!

[Valecnik]

Oh it's nice to find stuff all together like that. Keep all of it together, just like you bought it, including every record, would be my advice and yes of course buy it if you possibly can. Sell some other stuff you can more easily replace if necessary, car included

[FellowCollector]

Looking more closely at the motor I can see that all 3 of the original governor weights are present which is a plus. And it looks like you have about 30 Berliners in the box. And even if some records are not Berliners it is very likely that the remaining records are very early. And these are always in demand. You may have a couple of "Improved Gram-O-Phone Record" labels or other very scarce labels and titles in that box. It's been a looooong time since I have found a nice virgin outfit like this. The records are likely in good condition too being stored in their original box. I once found a Jessie Bartlett Davis Berliner record in an original Gram-O-Phone box of Berliners like this years ago. Her records are extremely scarce. You're very fortunate to have found this group. If the motor does not work they're simple to work on. And even if the fiber gear is bad these are being reproduced. You really can't go wrong here unless the current owner is outrageous on the asking price. Let us know how you do.

[Starkton]

You have easily 5 to 6 grand there.

Don't throw money around. Although a "complete" set like this tempting, 3 to 4 grand should do also. The spared funds could be invested in the machine which needs much attention - both in general appearance and missing parts!

[phonogfp]

The outfit is indeed tempting - - I'd be on it like white on rice. Keep in mind however, that an original Berliner horn will command at least $1000 in today's market. Also, the sound box is not a Berliner closed-face design, although it certainly looks old. It's possibly a New Century or an early Gibson - - either one would be nice to have. It does not appear to be a later Exhibition (which would really sour the deal). Everything depends upon price - - and what those records are. Good luck!

George P.

[gramophone78]

WOW!!!!!.This is great!!!.Look,if you can't afford this,I will gladly pay a finders fee.I think George is right.The reproducer is either a "New Century" or a "Standard" (Gibson).This is a 1896 Berliner and should have a closed face "J".However,it was clearly up graded back around 1900.That is a very rare reporducer.I just hope it has it's black "Johnson" paper inside.I have to say 5-6 Grand is no problem.That record box is a real keeper and I think george has one in his book (that is his own)so,he will know how rare "it" is.What a find!!!.I have one other question.......why have you not bought this already????.My motto "buy first,ask questions later".Oh yeah,this machine would have had a "funnel" horn.The last one in good shape sold for over 2K by Charlie Hummel on Ebay.I was the under bidder.I think this may have had hearing tubes and that why the horn rest is missing.IMHO

[phonogfp]

Whoa...let's not get TOO excited...!

I would have to disagree that this machine dates from 1896. The patent wasn't applied for until Aug. 22, 1897, and no advertisements for the "Improved Gramophone" (which this is) appeared until September 1897. This machine features a 3-weight governor, so it's probably early 1898. Likewise, I'm unaware of the "Improved Gramophone" being sold without a horn (or with ear tubes). The original $25.00 price included a horn. If this model was indeed sold otherwise, I'd be obliged to see the documentation - - there's always something new to learn.

Some pretty big money is being suggested for this example, but as Starkton advises, there's no cause for hysteria. The condition of the metal, particularly the support arm and the crank, is pretty rough. If the rust has pitted those parts, grinding and re-plating may be necessary. When all is said and done, after the acquisition of a horn for $1000 (if he's lucky) and restoration of the metal parts, he may have a machine worth $4000. We don't know if that record box has 29 Berliners in it, or if it contains 29 Victors. And as Fellow Collector points out, a few rare tiles could drastically increase the value, but it works the other way too: cracked records would drastically decrease the overall value.

Until Antique1973 knows exactly what's in the box, and is quoted a price, I would counsel a reasoned approach. It's not a good idea to mortgage the ranch quite yet...!

George P.

[JohnM]

I'd like to know a little of the backstory on the New Century and Gibson sound boxes, please? Thanks!

[gramophone78]

Typo on my part I meant 1897 not '96.Yes,I know the machine was sold for 25.00 with horn.However (because the horn wire is also missing) it is possiable that a early owner used tubes to listen (for whatever reason) and just to clairify the machine would not have been sold this way.However,as we know the reproducer was not sold with it new either.As for what I would pay.......the bottom line to that question is "what it is worth to ones self".Maybe,in Germany where Starkton is,Berliners are less expensive or easier to find??.I don't know.Maybe that's what it's worth to him?.I would pay 4-6K for the chance to own the whole package......but,that's me and maybe not someone else.I would be very surprised to see just that 1899 record box sell for under 1000.00.Again this is just a Berliner collectors opinion.
I do have one question for you George;because of the time you have in this hobby.When was the last time you saw a "in the wild" package like this for sale??.I'm just curious.