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Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:47 am
by gunnarthefeisty
gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:36 am
I think you mean you won't need a
Model B (sapphire) reproducer for a while.
A
Diamond B is what you really should use if you intend playing Blue Amberols, and any other celluloid 2 or 4 minute cylinders in your collection.
For ordinary black wax 2 min cylinders all you'll need is a common Model C (sapphire) reproducer and appropriate retaining ring, or to play 4 min wax as well, a Model H or K will allow you to.
If it were me, I'd keep the Diamond B, and get a Model K with retaining ring.
The K and ring would be far cheaper than an O, and will play all your black wax while still delivering great sound quality.
whoops! Yep, that's what I meant.
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:58 pm
by Lucius1958
gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:36 am
I think you mean you won't need a
Model B (sapphire) reproducer for a while.
A
Diamond B is what you really should use if you intend playing Blue Amberols, and any other celluloid 2 or 4 minute cylinders in your collection.
For ordinary black wax 2 min cylinders all you'll need is a common Model C (sapphire) reproducer and appropriate retaining ring, or to play 4 min wax as well, a Model H or K will allow you to.
If it were me, I'd keep the Diamond B, and get a Model K with retaining ring.
The K and ring would be far cheaper than an O, and will play all your black wax while still delivering great sound quality.
How does the Diamond B perform on 2 minute celluloid? I haven't tried it.
My concern is that the sound quality would be less than optimal, due to the stylus not filling the groove. I may have to try it on my Triumph.
- Bill
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:07 am
by gramophoneshane
The Diamond B performs perfectly on 2 min celluloid. I think because it's a conical stylus, it reaches the bottom of the groove with no loss of sound quality.
When I first bought my Electrophone cylinders back in the 1980's from a Sydney dealer, he said the vinyl used was formulated to be equal to 2 min wax cylinders so it wouldn't damage the sapphire, so I've always played those with a sapphire.
But when I read discussions on OTV forum about Wizard and Vulcan cylinders, it was said they could be played with either a sapphire or diamond, so after getting my first Vulcans I've always played them with a diamond stylus only, thinking if they're hard enough to withstand the Diamond B they're probably too harsh on a sapphire stylus.
I've also always played my Mexican 2M BA with a Diamond B, along with my Indestructible etc and they all sound fantastic and have never shown any signs of wear.
Definitely try it yourself and you'll probably never use a sapphire stylus on 2 min celluloid again.
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:48 am
by Valecnik
gunnarthefeisty wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:47 am
gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:36 am
I think you mean you won't need a
Model B (sapphire) reproducer for a while.
A
Diamond B is what you really should use if you intend playing Blue Amberols, and any other celluloid 2 or 4 minute cylinders in your collection.
For ordinary black wax 2 min cylinders all you'll need is a common Model C (sapphire) reproducer and appropriate retaining ring, or to play 4 min wax as well, a Model H or K will allow you to.
If it were me, I'd keep the Diamond B, and get a Model K with retaining ring.
The K and ring would be far cheaper than an O, and will play all your black wax while still delivering great sound quality.
whoops! Yep, that's what I meant.
Hmmm... I'm not a big fan of the K. The O gives much better results. I would rate them as follows based on side by side comparison, same records, same room - (left to right from worst to best)
- 2 min wax - K > C > O or M
- 2 min celluloid - K > C > O or M > N or L, (yes N or L) > Diamond B or A (especially on some very loudly reported cylinders)
- 4 min wax - K > H > O or M > N or L
- 4 min celluloid - K > H > O or M > N or L > Diamond B or A, (strong perference for B or A)
The problem with the K and to a lesser extent the C & H is that they are somewhat less tolerant slightly damaged, slightly thicker or thinner cylinders and less clearance between the stylus bar and the record, especially if the link is not adjusted perfectly. O, M, L, N handle this better. Sometimes on a warped Blue Amberol, the the O,M,L,N will track better than the Diamond A or B.
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:04 am
by gunnarthefeisty
Valecnik wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 5:48 am
gunnarthefeisty wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:47 am
gramophoneshane wrote: Wed Oct 20, 2021 2:36 am
I think you mean you won't need a
Model B (sapphire) reproducer for a while.
A
Diamond B is what you really should use if you intend playing Blue Amberols, and any other celluloid 2 or 4 minute cylinders in your collection.
For ordinary black wax 2 min cylinders all you'll need is a common Model C (sapphire) reproducer and appropriate retaining ring, or to play 4 min wax as well, a Model H or K will allow you to.
If it were me, I'd keep the Diamond B, and get a Model K with retaining ring.
The K and ring would be far cheaper than an O, and will play all your black wax while still delivering great sound quality.
whoops! Yep, that's what I meant.
Hmmm... I'm not a big fan of the K. The O gives much better results. I would rate them as follows based on side by side comparison, same records, same room - (left to right from worst to best)
- 2 min wax - K > C > O or M
- 2 min celluloid - K > C > O or M > N or L, (yes N or L) > Diamond B or A (especially on some very loudly reported cylinders)
- 4 min wax - K > H > O or M > N or L
- 4 min celluloid - K > H > O or M > N or L > Diamond B or A, (strong perference for B or A)
The problem with the K and to a lesser extent the C & H is that they are somewhat less tolerant slightly damaged, slightly thicker or thinner cylinders and less clearance between the stylus bar and the record, especially if the link is not adjusted perfectly. O, M, L, N handle this better. Sometimes on a warped Blue Amberol, the the O,M,L,N will track better than the Diamond A or B.
reading this, I'll just get a model C and keep my Diamond B. Much cheaper, and I've yet to find any wax Amberols at all.
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:36 am
by edisonplayer
I have an Amberola 30,also a Triumph model E with number 11 Cygnet horn. I like the sound of the Triumph when.I use the Diamond B for Blue Amberols. It really brings out the music. I seldom play the 30.edisonplayer.
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:59 am
by drh
Anybody have any thoughts about how trowel-weight vs. untrimmed weight factors into the calculus for the Model O, particularly as regards stylus wear with celluloid cylinders?
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:00 am
by drh
drh wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:59 am
Anybody have any thoughts about how trowel-shaped weight vs. untrimmed weight factors into the calculus for the Model O, particularly as regards stylus wear with celluloid cylinders?
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:22 pm
by Valecnik
drh wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:59 am
Anybody have any thoughts about how trowel-weight vs. untrimmed weight factors into the calculus for the Model O, particularly as regards stylus wear with celluloid cylinders?
I do not worry about stylus wear on celluloid cylinders. Styli can be easily turned or replaced. It's not a big price to pay every so often. Regarding the weights, the heavier round weight should theoretically be a little better tracking on loud celluloid but I've compared them side by side, same record on same machine in same room and can't tell the difference.
Re: Model O reproducer VS Diamond B for Blue Amberols
Posted: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:40 pm
by gramophoneshane
Valecnik wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:22 pm
I do not worry about stylus wear on celluloid cylinders. Styli can be easily turned or replaced. It's not a big price to pay every so often.
For me, it's not so much about replacing or turning the sapphire, it's about the damage the stylus does when you play wax Amberols.
After just one or two plays you can easily see the groove damage and hear more surface noise.
I guess it doesn't matter if you don't play or collect 4 min wax, but when you do, playing celluloid with a sapphire is a sure way to destroy a lot of wax Amberols.