The ultimate colonial HMV "130"?

[Starkton]

Indian workshops were and are able to build such a model from existing gramophone parts, either at the customer's request or on their own initiative. That written, I don't think it's a fake for the collector's market either. The youngest component, plus a few years of use before it was repurposed, define the period of origin of this attractive gramophone.

Personally, I clearly prefer models for which there is historical evidence, especially in catalogues. Otherwise there is always some doubt as to what you are looking at.

[Steve]

Indian workshops were and are able to build such a model from existing gramophone parts, either at the customer's request or on their own initiative. That written, I don't think it's a fake for the collector's market either. The youngest component, plus a few years of use before it was repurposed, define the period of origin of this attractive gramophone.

Personally, I clearly prefer models for which there is historical evidence, especially in catalogues. Otherwise there is always some doubt as to what you are looking at.

Thank you, Starkton, for your input and valuable contribution to this thread. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment and I would put this machine around the mid to late 1930's with the dealership / HMV (Calcutta) being especially resourceful utilising whatever parts they had available - in this instance, all the very best acoustic parts available for a table grand size (and therefore possibly more transportable) machine. If this had been manufactured in the UK you might have expected bronzed internal fittings.

[CarlosV]

Looking at Jose's website now, what do you make of the Thorens horn machine with very light (almost orange colour) wooden horn?

The machine and horn look genuine, but over-restored, the horn in particular: it seems that a polyurethane varnish was applied and made it too shiny. The soundbox has an aluminium diaphragm: an external horn machine like that probably dates from before 1920, so it should have a mica diaphragm.

I had a worse impression with the cylindrical machine on the same page with the sale price tag of 3150 euros (!): the same over-restored horn and wrong soundbox - moreover the whole box looks newly made, and with so many cylindrical crapophones flooding eBay, my first reaction is to declare it a fake, until a period catalogue shows up with one. It has also a very strange design particularity: the plinth appears not to be screwed, but it only sits on the body, with dowel pins to keep it in place. Not the best attachment for a motor and turntable that will shake, rattle and roll.

This is the problem I have with this seller: some of the machines he sells are bona fide, even quite rare like the one you bought, but mixed with them there are some dodgy ones as well.

[Steve]

Looking at Jose's website now, what do you make of the Thorens horn machine with very light (almost orange colour) wooden horn?

The machine and horn look genuine, but over-restored, the horn in particular: it seems that a polyurethane varnish was applied and made it too shiny. The soundbox has an aluminium diaphragm: an external horn machine like that probably dates from before 1920, so it should have a mica diaphragm.

I had a worse impression with the cylindrical machine on the same page with the sale price tag of 3150 euros (!): the same over-restored horn and wrong soundbox - moreover the whole box looks newly made, and with so many cylindrical crapophones flooding eBay, my first reaction is to declare it a fake, until a period catalogue shows up with one. It has also a very strange design particularity: the plinth appears not to be screwed, but it only sits on the body, with dowel pins to keep it in place. Not the best attachment for a motor and turntable that will shake, rattle and roll.

This is the problem I have with this seller: some of the machines he sells are bona fide, even quite rare like the one you bought, but mixed with them there are some dodgy ones as well.

Thank you, Carlos, for your thoughts and observations.

Yes, I've been looking through some of the machines he has sold over the past 5 years and there most definitely are some real beauties amongst them which are also incredibly rare. But there are also quite a few which have obviously been restored to the point where they look too new, which is where my interest leaves the room.

Interestingly I thought the same as you regarding the Thorens but I asked Jose today what finish is on that horn as it looks to be refinished and very shiny. He responded saying that it isn't anywhere near as shiny as his photography implies it is and that the finish has not been replaced or restored. I appreciate the soundbox is a much later and non original type but it seems no one alive actually knows what soundbox it should really have?

He had a stunning Spanish HMV No.5 with multi-coloured metal horn a few years ago (see link below). The horn paint was untouched from new and a simply magnificent and very rare survival. I wish I had spotted it before it sold!

He has sold 4 HMV 13C's (including the one he sold me) and a 13B since he started his current online business, not to mention the No. 14. That is quite impressive in itself.

https://www.antiguedades.es/en/gramopho ... -1920.html

[CarlosV]

Interestingly I thought the same as you regarding the Thorens but I asked Jose today what finish is on that horn as it looks to be refinished and very shiny. He responded saying that it isn't anywhere near as shiny as his photography implies it is and that the finish has not been replaced or restored. I appreciate the soundbox is a much later and non original type but it seems no one alive actually knows what soundbox it should really have?

Yes, Steve, it is difficult to make a good assessment based on photos. If you are interested in the machine, you could ask him to make a short movie clip, or send you more photos. Its horn, if not over-restored as it looks, would make it a worthwhile acquisition. As to the soundbox, it is indeed hard to figure out, as the machine does not have a brand other than the Thorens motor. I would install one of these German ones with aluminium body, they were often installed in similar machines.

[jamiegramo]

Indeed. Looking at Jose's website now, what do you make of the Thorens horn machine with very light (almost orange colour) wooden horn?

A nice looking machine with the pale wood but perhaps a bit pricey for a Swissie even with a wooden horn. The brass horn collar needs to be removed from the horn and nickel plated to match the elbow otherwise it looks odd or like a marriage.

[Steve]

Indeed. Looking at Jose's website now, what do you make of the Thorens horn machine with very light (almost orange colour) wooden horn?

A nice looking machine with the pale wood but perhaps a bit pricey for a Swissie even with a wooden horn. The brass horn collar needs to be removed from the horn and nickel plated to match the elbow otherwise it looks odd or like a marriage.

The brass collar is already plated but it's simply that the plating has worn at the "uppermost" point when it is assembled ready to use.