The Talking Machine Forum — For All Antique Phonographs & Recordings

I'm disappointed in the users saying it's a Victrola... Just because it has the sound doors doesn't mean it's a Victrola.

It's a generic late teens to early 20s off-brand. While it uses the door patent, which didn’t fully expire for Victor until the early 1920s (between 1921 and 1923), a few companies tried to fly under Victor's radar in the late teens. So, I'm not entirely inclined to say it's from the early 1920s, but there's a strong chance.

This was likely the house brand for the San Francisco-based "The White House" department store. The entire machine was contracted out—the cabinet, mechanical parts—and White House just slapped on their own decal to give the appearance that they were offering their own house brand. Quite a few companies used the door patent once it expired for Victor, including Starr, Kimberly, Bush, and Lane, just to name a few.

Jerry B. wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 9:54 am With all respect that is not a Victor product. That's an exanple off an off brand machine that flooded the market when patents began to expire for the big three of Victor, Columbia, and Brunswick about 1917. (I think Brunswick replaced Edison in market share by that time.). Many of the off brand machines were made to resemble Victrolas and were filled with generic mechanisms with many using pot metal tone arm assemblies.

Jerry B.

if you want to get really technical, Victor's tracking patent started to be challenged as early as 1914. Sonora was one of the first, followed by Vocalion and Cheney. The emergence of off brand phonographs has their roots around 1914. There were quite a few companies that introduced their own phonograph brands between 1914-1916, like said Sonora, Vocalion, Cheney, among many others. The patent wasn't fully invalidated/expired till 1917.

That image was not in the OP, where did you get the info to get to it?
The OP only showed images 1 to 3 of 7, and have no clue to the origins...

OK, we'll give you a pass this time.

Jerry B.

Benjamin_L wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 5:54 pm

Jerry B. wrote: Thu Mar 20, 2025 9:54 am With all respect that is not a Victor product. That's an exanple off an off brand machine that flooded the market when patents began to expire for the big three of Victor, Columbia, and Brunswick about 1917. (I think Brunswick replaced Edison in market share by that time.). Many of the off brand machines were made to resemble Victrolas and were filled with generic mechanisms with many using pot metal tone arm assemblies.

Jerry B.

if you want to get really technical, Victor's tracking patent started to be challenged as early as 1914. Sonora was one of the first, followed by Vocalion and Cheney. The emergence of off brand phonographs has their roots around 1914. There were quite a few companies that introduced their own phonograph brands between 1914-1916, like said Sonora, Vocalion, Cheney, among many others. The patent wasn't fully invalidated/expired till 1917.

In the UK, the corresponding HMV patents were challenged much earlier than 1914. Technically speaking there were some very notable designs using the same horn door / tone / volume control idea from British Pathé and independent makers such as Bassanophone, going back as early as 1907.

Steve wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 10:15 am In the UK, the corresponding HMV patents were challenged much earlier than 1914. Technically speaking there were some very notable designs using the same horn door / tone / volume control idea from British Pathé and independent makers such as Bassanophone, going back as early as 1907.

The same happened in France and Germany, there are many contemporary machines - Pathé, Parlophon, Odeon etc - that utilize the doors as volume control. It seems that these patents were not really enforced outside the USA.

Jerry B. wrote: Fri Mar 21, 2025 9:54 am

That image was not in the OP, where did you get the info to get to it?
The OP only showed images 1 to 3 of 7, and have no clue to the origins...

OK, we'll give you a pass this time.

Jerry B.

Uuuufff.... What a slide...